Hello, everyone. Welcome to Real Talk with Tia and Jill and our very special guest today, Sarah Smith Simpson. Welcome. Thank you. Sarah, we're so excited to have you here. And for folks who know how we run our show, we always have like a pre-talk before we get on. And of course, we're all super excited that Sarah's here. So we wanted to start the show before we started the show, but we want you along with us. So Thank you for being with us on Real Talk. This is a show where we like to have honest conversations to lead people forward in food. And that's why we are so honored to have Sarah here to talk about today's episode from sensory science to baby food safety and everything in between. So I know we're just really excited to jump in. So Sarah, let's just do it. Do you mind just sharing with the audience a little bit about yourself and like how you found yourself in this path? Yes, absolutely. So currently I'm a principal scientist, product expert at Nestle Nutrition and Health. So I spent a lot of my time, well, actually just celebrated twenty years with the company. I originally was hired by Gerber Baby Food, where we're located in Fremont, Michigan, the home, the foundation of baby food. We're celebrating one hundred years of baby food next year. So I haven't been there. OK, I've only been there for a fifth of that. But yeah. And so, you know, my career, I don't know, my path has been a unique one. I think like, you know, during our little short pre-talk, I mentioned that, you know, back early in my career, like, you know, looking back, I felt like I look at kids today and they're so driven. They're like applying for everything and they go for things. And I look back at my path and I was like, wow, I think it was the path of least resistance. I think, you know, I was an undergrad and I had no clue what food science was. I was a nutrition major, nutritional science at Michigan State. But I had a class at eight a.m. and four p.m. in the same building with a long break in between. So I was like, oh, I wonder if I could get a job somewhere near here rather than biking home every day, right, in between classes. So I applied to be basically a glorified dishwasher in a food science lab. And that led to me being offered like an assistantship to do a master's in that lab. I stuck around for two years and apparently did something right. And it was like, okay, I really had no plans after graduation. So I was like, yeah, food science seems cool. And yeah, let me do this. So it was in food microbiology. So funny, at my master's defense, my mother came. She actually has been at both of my grad school defenses and she's a wild card. she's kind of a wild card she wasn't she was kicking some of my like grad student friends under the table when they were asking her questions she was like She's there to protect you. So she always said, girls, because I have two sisters. And so she says, girls, you need to go to college because you don't want to be flipping burgers for the rest of your life. Okay, this is, you know, my mom's pretty old school, grew up on a farm, figured that we'd end up at McDonald's, right, if we didn't. You know, it could be a great job for food safety. But, you know, and so then literally my master's defense, I was working on a grant from McDonald's flipping burgers. Like, literally. That's hilarious. Like, inoculating them with salmonella and, like, flipping burgers for my master's degree. Love it. So she told that story at my defense. I know. And so then, you know, then I had the opportunity to transfer over to Rutgers and work with, you know, an amazing extension specialist out there, Don Schaffner. And, again, microbiology. But, you know, ladies at the time, you know, this was... I don't know if I'm going to date myself, you know, like the mid-nineties, you know, food safety. I mean, E. coli, O. one, five, seven, eight, seven, you know, penicillin resistant salmonella, like everything micro is big. And that's kind of where the funding was. So after four years, again, I was still working in meat, again, microbiology, but this time sleeping on a cot, you know, overnights in the lab to pull samples every four hours. You know, I just, yeah. Yeah. i really felt like i needed maybe a change so i wanted to go into academia but then decided well maybe i'll try industry first and then maybe find my way back and so i applied for a bunch of industry jobs and i'll tell you my two best interviews i had two offers one was in food safety for a you know a food industry job um and one was in sensory and consumer insights for gerber And I had taken like maybe two sensory courses throughout all my time in food science. But it just felt right. You know, I went to interview. They gave me a little pin that said anything for baby. I followed my gut and joined Sensory and Consumer Insights. And so I did that job for about five years. And then I had a second. So I had a daughter who was six months old when I first joined. And I think it was probably hormonal, right? Like why I took the job at Gerber. I was like, they're doing anything for babies. I have a baby. But, you know, and then I had a second child and he had some feeding difficulties. Like he had a really hard time. He was actually tongue tied as a baby and he had some allergies and it just wasn't as easy of a process. And so I knew there were a few people in our company that kind of really studied this feeding development. Like Gerber has this i guess idea that you have to teach babies how to eat like you know how we teach them how to talk and we teach them how to walk they need to learn how to eat as well and so i was fascinated by this idea and so i started mentoring with someone and that led me into child development and feeding development and then ultimately led me back to safety Because it really came down to how are babies interacting with our products and how can we design them to be safe? So my current role is really guiding product design. So really quality by design to make sure we're designing the texture, the size, the shape, the whole format, even the package, like we're designing them to be safe for babies to interact with and kids. I love that. Love it. I love hearing how people fall into food safety and even like the journey. So yours is obviously unique to your own and it's love it. Can you talk a little bit more, Sarah? And, you know, we kind of talk about we were kind of talking before we jumped on. But one of the things that you said that was just fascinating to me is like your your your gut following your gut. And when you first went to Gerber, being a new mom and how they really took care of you, even through the interview process, can you talk a little bit about that and how that made you feel and why you felt like that was a good fit for you at that time in your life? Yeah, absolutely. So within probably a month period, I went through two different interviews and they were starkly different. So the first was with another food company and in food safety. And I don't really want to pigeonhole, but it was a male manager and all of my colleagues would have been men. And so I started asking questions like, oh, do you guys, you know, have families? And most of them had, you know, were single income families and they traveled a lot. And so that really like just I think I left that interview as I was using my breast pump in the airport bathroom because I didn't have any breaks throughout the day. I just started thinking about sort of that work life balance. And I don't think I'd really ever thought about that before. But as a new mom, yeah. And then, you know, I interviewed for a full day at Gerber and they asked me beforehand, like, you know, are you breastfeeding? And I said, yes. And they said, okay. So they scheduled a mother's room for me and breaks for me throughout the day. And let me know that I could take a break whenever I needed, if I needed to, like as a new mom. And once, you know, and it was just working for a female manager who actually had five children of her own. And working on a team of all women in sensory, it just felt right. I remember, you know, and they even like had a driver pick me up at the airport and drive me to Fremont. I got to stay in the Gerber guest house, which was the actual, like the home. It was a bed and breakfast at the time, but it was the home where the original Gerber family lived. And so there was all this history and just, and the pin, like I talked about, like, I just left there and I called my husband from the van that they were driving me back to the airport. And I said, if I get the offer, I'm taking it at Gerber. And he said, what? What? But the other job was a better fit for like, you know, what you've been studying. And I said, I don't care. So, yeah, just I don't know why. It was probably the first time in my life like I really trusted my gut over my brain. And I mean, twenty years later, I'm so extremely happy that I did. I feel like that that's an amazing story, just working in culture because they were very intentional about how they treated you, knowing that you were a new mom, right? Knowing that you needed, you know, certain things, they asked the right questions and just the fact that you were actually better suited for the other role, right? But you took this role because they were actually very intentional about how they treated you. It's just like a really, on if you really build the right culture and treat people the way, so that they feel like they matter, that they see you, that you were valuable. Even before going in, you automatically was like, this is where I'm going regardless right like I I might have the skills for the other thing whatever but this is where I'm going because this is how they made me feel about it right and obviously you've been there for twenty years so you know like even being able to capture your talent and use your talent even while you're while you're there and I know you've made some moves since being there It just, it shows to that culture on how humans make decisions based on how we treat them, which is like, duh, right? But we talk about it from a culture perspective, right? Sometimes we forget that. Well, and I think too, the part that decisions are, all our decisions are actually emotional based. I mean, even if we have data, part of that is this check of like, does this data make sense so I can move forward? And I think how like leaning into that, that knowing that we often kind of disregard because it maybe doesn't have data or science to truly explain it. But when you do, I love that you were like, it was the path of least resistance, but yet it was the path that felt right. And how powerful that is that you had the awareness to see that. Just you talking, Tia, just made me think. I recently had a two-week long work trip to Europe, which is another perk of working for Nestle. But one of our senior leaders was asked about work-life balance. And it just like I was crying, like listening to her, like just she got she got emotional herself. And she said, when I first took this job, she said they told me the first year would be flying all over the world to visit every Nestle factory that we have. I think there's over two hundred of them. And she said, okay, well, my son's going to be a senior in high school and Jill and I can relate to this. And she said, and he plays American football because everyone, when you say football, they think soccer over in Europe. And she said, I promised him I would be home for eight out of his ten games. And she's like, I don't care what it takes. I'm going to be home. And I just literally was like tearing up in the audience. And I actually had my son's Because he's a senior, plays football. His pin, you know, his like his jersey pin in my pocket. But I was at the Nestle headquarters. So I was like, I can't wear this on my dress. Like I have to have it in my pocket. And I walked up to her afterwards. I said, thank you so much for that. saying that, you know, and like saying that because I feel like a lot of times we don't ask for what we need. And what she needed, what she needed was to be home for eight of those ten football games for her son's senior year. And that was her first year working with the company. And it just was a huge reminder to me to ask for what we need. And so, you know, and I had actually on that trip asked to leave a day early. So I could get home and only miss one of my son's football games instead of two. But it's just, yeah. So, I mean, culture, Tia, is everything. And when you have those leaders that are willing to speak about, you know, what they've asked for. And a lot of times when we ask, we can work it out. You know, there's a compromise there. And, you know, when we ask, I just, I don't know if I knew young in my career to ask. to ask for what I needed. But it's scary. I feel like it's scary to ask for what you need because you're trying to go with the flow. We scheduled two weeks here. What if I have to go back one day? It's kind of scary to ask. But you realize when you do ask, everyone around is human. We're all human. And we all have things kind of going on. And it kind of tells about the culture where you are on do people value that or Well, I think that's the other part. We need to see signals that it's okay to ask for those things. So if we're in a culture where I think, like you said, you know, either our peers or our senior leaders, if they don't give us those signals to say those things matter to them so that it's okay, it's okay for them to matter to us, then we may hold back because we know in that space that if that's not valued, that it's not something we likely are going to step into as easily. So, looking for that is really important too. And what you do as a leader, like that could be unintentional. So if that leader had said, you know, oh, it was my first year and I really wanted to make eight of the ten games, but I knew I needed to make it to all facilities. So I decided to do this and I made it to five instead of ten. So now you're telling this message of, wow, I can't be flexible in my work. What if I need to do this? What if I need to, you know, take an extra day? You know, like the message that you're sending, even if People make decisions for themselves all the time. But I've had conversations with CEOs. I'm like, well, I like to catch up on email while I'm on vacation. What is that telling your people? They're like, well, I want people to disconnect, but you're not. And you're sending a message whether or not you're just trying to catch up or whatever it is. I'm like, schedule that to send on Monday morning. Schedule all one hundred emails to go out Monday morning. when you're supposed to be back versus sending emails while you're out because you're still communicating a message. Just like when your senior leader told the story, she was communicating the message around how this organization valued people. She was still able to do what she needed to do because her organization was flexible. She asked what she wanted and she got what she wanted through this flexibility. She said she took a few red eyes from China back to California. She had some sacrifice on her side as well, but it was her choice. She started off that conversation by saying, You know, okay, work-life balance, everything is a choice. So you're choosing, right, to check your email on vacation. You're choosing, you know, but everything is a choice. And I don't think early in my career I realized that, you know, that I do have choices as well. And all choices have, you know, effect, whether they're good or bad. But we all have a choice in our career. Yes. And if you don't ask, you're not going to get it. It will always be no if you never ask, right? Exactly. And through your career at Gerber, you really have asked and kind of moved around in your career. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. So when I started in sensory, I did feel a little lost. I took a certificate program out of UC Davis to learn all about sensory, and it was amazing. But I just felt like most of my colleagues at the same level as me had studied sensory in school. And they all had, like, an expertise, right? They had, like, something that they were really good at, whether it was qualitative research or quantitative research or just experimental design. And I was feeling really lost. I was like, I don't have something. And I think that's where I really found the feeding development. And I found an opportunity to, like, because, I mean, I did study child development or feeding development. Yes, I had two little kids at home. They were my guinea pigs. I constantly studied all that stuff. putting the video camera the big old video camera which i now wish i would have transcribed all those videos but i had hours of video of my kids eating food right i really wanted to find my niche and so i had asked for a previous opportunity but my manager has said well someone else has asked for that opportunity as well so we're going to give it to them but then this came up and i was like you know i'd really love to learn about this and i think it was the best decision I've ever made because it really, it carved out a niche for myself. So I've been able to build up like a network both within Nestle and outside of Nestle to really look at this, like how do we design our foods And a leader said it to me the other day. It's like, we want to teach children, like we want them to learn how to eat, but we also want them to eat to learn, right? So like learn to eat and eat to learn. And so it was this really, yeah. So I asked for that opportunity and it was granted to me. And then I was able to like, well, okay. So I will have to say, So that I was mentoring a person, like probably the leader in child development, childhood feeding, and she was a registered dietitian at Gerber. And six months into my shadowing mentorship, she left the company to just, for her family, to stay home with her family. And I was like, oh my gosh, what do I do now? So I tried to hire her back as a consultant. You know, to keep helping me, but you know, it wasn't going to work out. And so everyone just said, okay, well, Sarah's now our new child development expert. And I mean, I've been doing this for like six months. So when you talk about imposter syndrome or like fake it till you make it, like I was reaching out to any contact that I had had like, oh my gosh, help me. Cause now this is all these decisions are on me. um so yeah yeah and then you know when he was talk about asking or jill um you know then i was still doing all the sensory work the sensory consumer insights work and then i took on this child development and then i had we had someone retire so i took on kind of the physical safety part of it like you know so how could any consumer injure themselves with one of our products or packages so now i'm wearing three hats it's really hard like for about two years i was like trying to switch my brain from one to the other to the other and i was like well i guess i'm spreading out so i'm like building you know like i guess you know my competencies but at the same time i didn't feel like i was doing any of them justice you know because i was like i had to kind of like you know give fifty percent of my time here fifty percent there you know i just it felt like i wasn't giving my best So I would say it took me fifteen years with being with the company, but I finally was able to, I wrote my own job description. I just went out, I wrote my job profile and I went to my current manager at the time and I said, I want to move away from the sensory and I really want to focus on this feeding and the safety part of it. And they approved it. So they like approved the new role and hey, it took me fifteen years to even know that I could write my own job description and ask for it. you know, as you build, I guess, credibility within, you know, your company and you build these relationships and you build knowledge about your company and like what they need. So this is what we needed, you know, I mean, to protect our consumers. And so very individualized role, but yeah, it's like, yeah, you have to ask and think about it. And I think the younger generation, you know, I think kids coming in, I think they do this a lot better than we do. I don't want to lump you into like the same generation as me, but I mean, it took me fifteen years, you know, and again, but I haven't been in the last five years have been like the best of my career, I have to say, because I really feel like I found my niche. I really love being a subject matter expert. And I love knowing that like what I do impacts our products like on a daily basis. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I love that story and like kind of forging a path and and and ask once again, asking for what we need and saying, here's where where I'm at. You know, I think about we have a big audience of people kind of in the food safety world, you know, food industry, but, you know, food safety as well. And I think once you're in food safety, you kind of think like this is where my home is versus thinking outside of that. um and i'm curious how even as you were thinking about like food micro and food safety like how did that actually lay the groundwork for you to maybe like did it lay the groundwork and in what ways perhaps to step into this and and kind of thrive in this space and create this path Yeah, and I think I would really credit it to the fact that I worked with Don Schaffner, the extension specialist at Rutgers. So yes, I was doing a PhD for four years. And a lot of times you think of PhD, it can be very science, like very, very heavy science. Sometimes it's hard to see the application, right? Like to see... like what you do and like the data you create, the knowledge you create, it's hard to see the application. So working for an extension specialist, I think it gave me a completely different mindset. I think it was like, I want to do something that I'm going to see impact, right? Directly the food industry. So my PhD research was actually, so if you're familiar with the predictive models that the USDA has out there for free, I was looking at cooling meat products and preventing Clostridium perfringens spores from activating and like, you know, making people sick. But I directly saw like my data translated into predictive models that are now available out there for small meat processors or any meat processors to actually use the cooling cycles of their site, you know, of their processing. So I think that's really like, that's always been my focus is I want to see the direct impact. So the first few years in sensory, I would walk down the baby aisle at least once a week and be like, oh, I worked on that. I worked on that. Like I wasn't the one developing the recipes, but I was the one, you know, getting babies reactions, you know, and I was the one doing, you know, consumer testing and, you know, getting those consumer insights. So it just, it felt like I always wanted to do something that I could see the impact, right? Like it might be a lot, not real time, but like, you know, something that is directly going to impact. And so it's hard because, you know, when someone asks me like, you know what, what's the ROI? I've been there twenty years, what's your return on investment? And to the company, what commitments have you made? And I say, every day that we get through the day or the week without a food recall, because a consumer has injured themselves with our product, that's my ROI. And it's very hard to quantify because I've been asked to try to quantify, well, what does that cost the company but I think that's you know every month every year that goes by and our products are you know being purchased and eaten and and keeping consumers well fed safely I think that's so just that application I really need to see that you know all the time and effort that I've dedicated you know when you think about it the time away from your kids and your family um that it's making an impact and having a positive impact on other families Yeah, that's a really powerful message because I think often we rely on our technical knowledge to actually kind of move us into new spaces. And even when we're challenged to think about like, what skills do you have that you can transfer over? You know, that's a bigger, you know, a different mindset to think about that. And what I heard in what you talked about was really kind of leaning into that side. Like it was also this the way of thinking and this application and these skills that really you learned throughout your, you know, those early days of, you know, sleeping on the cot and pulling samples and seeing how it matters, that really kind of helped like pave that way. And so, you know, having people kind of think about what are those skills that you really see and that matter to you? What are those that you can then move into different spaces? Yeah. And Jill, I think, you know, you know, you would ask me like one of the questions about, you know, like, so, yes, I have a lot of education and, you know, I kind of feel like I just never really knew what I wanted to do. So just keep going to school. I'm a continual learner. I love being a student, you know, and I was able to do that at the time. But, you know, you asked about like what skills I didn't learn, you know, like, you know, through the education. And I think one of the things I never realized is, you know, to really sit back and look at because everybody has strengths and it could be, you know, that technical thinking, you know, that that processing. And I think for me, it was really I loved, I guess, sharing knowledge. Like, I think I love training. I love teaching people. And so that's one thing I wish I maybe would have leaned in on a little bit more right earlier, but I really lean in on now is, you know, getting out there and like presenting all of this data and, you know, really speaking to people and doing training, whether it's internally or externally. And so I feel like I have this gift, like I'm very comfortable, you know, like speaking in front of people and I'm comfortable improvising, which um you know can be fun but uncomfortable for some people but i think i wish i would have leaned into that a little bit more i always think about oh i could have become a corporate trainer or i could have i don't know we'll see but we're still young we still have you know our second thirds fourth careers coming up so yeah maybe you'll see me out on that motivational speaking you know that circuit Well, I'm kind of curious. Can I ask a fun question? Like, as you talk about, like, the work that you did with, like, even testing with babies. How was that? Can you, like, set the scene? Or, like, is it, like, twenty babies? Is it ten babies? Are they crawling around? How do you do taste tests with babies? I will tell you, it was, I mean, the best, the best job I've ever had. So Gerber, back in the day, we actually like had a panel of four thousand people. babies that we went to maintain and think about it and they're always aging so you have to keep recruiting these babies and so if you really look way back you can probably on youtube find a few like gerber commercials literally all these babies in high chairs you know like kind of eating and you know someone with a clipboard you know over there like And so it says it's not Gerber approved until it's baby approved. And so we did. So probably I would say probably three to five times a week. Yeah, we would have probably minimum sixty to one hundred babies and their parents. come into a central location site and taste our products. And it would be anything from infant cereals to purees to healthy snacks to toddler meals. And babies can't talk. Most of them, our consumers couldn't talk. And so it really was about we did a lot of videotaping so we could watch the baby's reactions. And, you know, when you've got a kid, like, reaching for the spoon and, like, scooting their high chair over closer to mom, you know, you're like, okay, that product's really good. And then you get the little baby that's like, like, you know, like, spitting the food out. You're like, okay, that might have been a little too bitter. So that must have been a veggie. Yeah, so it's really, like, we always saw the parent as sort of, like, the person who knew their child best. So they would fill out a questionnaire, like, how well did your child like the product? Sometimes we would ask how much of it did they eat? We did a lot of videotaping so we could watch the baby's, like, you know, behavioral reaction and, like, really interpret that. So it was a little bit of, I almost felt like a psychologist, you know, at times. Like, you know, I'm watching, you know, like, the baby's body language and, you know. what were they doing were they moving away in the high chair are they moving closer in the high chair you know um how did they enjoy the product were they opening their mouth wide and like leaning forward to grab the spoon so it's really like using that combination of like what the parents impression was of the product and then the child's kind of like behavioral reaction to the product as well it was fast it was fascinating and we still do it today um you know So we're constantly like pretty much almost every food I think, you know, that Gerber, the Gerber brand launches has gone through some type of consumer testing and to really help us refine it, you know, and to make sure that we have the right appearance, the right flavor, the right texture for that. Right. Yeah. And when you talk about, like, impact. And just being in a facility where there's, like, a hundred babies coming in that day. That is mind-blowing. I don't know. Like, I'm just thinking about what that would be like. Whew. I know. So they usually were in like a little booth, you know, like a little cubicle with a high chair and mom sat in the chair with a computer, you know, but how can you be like, you can't be around that many babies, like, and not just be happy. And I just remember we would always try to schedule a test on Halloween and all the babies would come because we're getting close. And it's one of my favorite holidays. So all the babies would come in in their costumes and And I still have like this montage up in my office from years ago of like, you know, someone took all the little baby pictures in their costumes and we made like this little like montage and it just makes me smile. That is so, that's so awesome. I've always wondered like, is it ten, is it a hundred? So like... When I said a hundred, I was kind of joking. It totally depends on what your research objective is. But I would say minimum fifty. And if you're trying to make a decision, you know, like maybe for claims or like you want to make an actual, you know, like specific claim on PAC closer to a hundred. Wow. Wow. That's amazing. And like you said, just the happiness that you get from it's like a built in happiness. Like what is it like? like a chemical reaction in your body that you just get just from your job naturally because you're running. I'm surprised I ended up with just two children after. After being around all these babies? I could come home every day and be like, let's go for number three. Let's go for number three. Well, maybe that falls more into like your intuition, your gut feeling of like, maybe, maybe not. Yeah. I'll just get my baby fix every time I go to work. There you go. That's true. There you go. Sarah, I'm curious when you talk about, I want to go back to your intuition and how you went through your career, asking for what you want, but really following your gut, what feels right. And you mentioned that previously, you really maybe didn't follow your gut or you didn't lean on it in that way. What have you seen? What have you seen now that you lean into your gut more? Or do you feel like that you do because these other situations worked out and you're like, yeah, I feel good when I follow my gut. Like how have your relationship with like your intuition shifted over time? I would say, and I mean, the first word that came to mind was mentor, mentors. You know, I've had such amazing mentors and some that have just naturally progressed. You know, maybe it was a manager. You know, Tia, I remember, you know, I came to Gerber and I was like, I'm going to be like the senior leader. I'm going to be, you know, manager of everyone's sensory. Like I had big aspirations. Yeah. And so my manager, my first manager at the time, this amazing woman, she said, okay, well, we're going to put in your development plan that I will work for you someday because that's your, like, literally that. And she was just, you know, this amazing mentor that made me look at things very differently. I also had another mentor. She was an occupational therapist that I worked with and just this amazing woman where we just had would have these conversations about life. And, you know, she was external to Nestle, but she was a consultant for our company. But she had we just happened to run into each other at an airport one time as we were both traveling to the same place. And I don't know. She said, well, I could mentor you. And I was like, oh, that'd be amazing. And then I've had a few, you know, like other amazing mentors like within Nestle who have just, I guess, really gotten me outside my comfort zone, you know, and like really encouraged me like, okay, Sarah, you're telling me this, you're telling me that. I'm challenging you, go do this, right? Like don't ask for what you want. So when you, I guess my intuition, I guess I've learned to come to trust myself more like through these mentors that have really coached and guided me and given me that, I guess, um, just confidence to do it. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. Having the right people around you, you know, having a strong circle around you. And I think it also speaks to when you talk about, you know, younger generations knowing how to ask for things more than previous generations. I think it's because a lot of what you're talking about, like just having those mentors and then also the fact that you talk about it. Right. I didn't ask for what I want. And then I did. And this is the outcome. And this is how I landed closer to what I wanted. So now just sharing those messages. Right. Younger people are like, well, I'm going to ask for what I want. I'm going to try it and see. And I think it just makes us a stronger workforce. Yeah, and, you know, you're probably not always going to get what you ask for, but you're never going to get it if you don't ask. Right. And, like, have that confidence. And, you know, Tia, one other thing is something I've had a love-hate relationship with over the years is feedback, like asking for feedback. And, you know, it's just trying to better yourself. And so one thing I've really come to learn is I would just – just really encourage everyone like if you have feedback for a colleague you know or anyone that you're working with go directly to them you know and it's very hard like i think i receive feedback very well when i ask for it so when i specifically ask for it i'm like i want to know and you know we americans love the compliment sandwich so that's usually how i get it but sometimes when it comes unsolicited it can be very hard and you know so but i would just encourage um you know i try to do that to have that respect with my colleagues like if i'm kind of struggling with you and you know or you know with a colleague i want to have that conversation with them directly you know and give them the feedback and give them the chance to improve themselves or tell me why they're doing things the way they're doing, you know, give an explanation or make an improvement, you know, rather than escalating it, you know, like maybe to their manager, like, you know, really just having each other's backs, you know, kind of being those good citizens, you know, to help all of us grow. You know, that's really been I would say probably the last five years I've been really trying to, you know, as I see myself moving from a mentee, maybe after twenty years, into more of a mentor. Right, yes. Now those are some of the, but I don't even know, when do you, I don't know, when do you become qualified to actually mentor someone else? I would say you're there, Sarah. I'd say anytime. because i often think too like some of the things that people earlier in their career you know we talk a little bit about the early generation they see things that are just as valuable for me to be like oh i didn't even know that was a thing like cool i need to know that thank you for sharing the reverse mentoring the reverse mentoring yeah there's like five mentors you should have like there's like this article out there of like five mentors you should have and one of them is that reverse mentor having someone that's younger than you that's newer in their career because they see they learn they almost like oh yeah I am supposed to ask for what I want you know like oh yeah that is what we teach the kids to do you know and that's what they're trying to tell you remember to ask for what you want wow and then they can school us on social media exactly true well i think it's through that what i see is this underlying kind of um theme of like this self-awareness and like how do you have these conversations to like have that awareness like oh i need to ask for what i need or oh here's some feedback or those are some of those moments and you know obviously we're fans of coaching because leadership management styles have not all shifted, but are starting to shift more right into the more of a, how do we be better leaders and coaches in these spaces? And yeah, that's a, that's a learned leadership skill. Not everybody is a natural at it. So it makes me think about like, you know, as you've gone through all of this work and these navigating these spaces where you're like, that's, I didn't go to school for that, but I'm going to lean in or whatever that was, you know, Clearly, technically, you're very qualified and as a leader, but is there a leadership skill? You've mentioned feedback, but is there a skill that you've seen through your career that's really made the biggest difference for you? And I'm curious, was there a moment in time when you realized that was something that you needed to be able to have the success you wanted? You know, it was... Yes, like a lot of deep reflection. I would say, you know, the first word that comes to mind is authenticity. So within Nestle, we started these lean in, I guess, circles. And so, you know, Sharon Sanborn wrote the lean in book many, many years ago and then has this whole like, you know, plethora of resources online. And so we actually like Nestle really leaned in and we formed these lean in circles. And so I became one of the facilitators of those circles. And so every year we would sit down and there's a list that's available on leanin.org of like, I don't know, probably a hundred like character traits. And we would challenge each other in our circle to pick three that we were really going to focus on in that year. And I think the first three years we did this, authenticity was always my number one. I want to be authentic because I felt like my role was very authentic, but it was very unique. But I had to stay authentic. I had to stay true to myself. And if I believed in something, I couldn't back down. You know, like I and I had to also realize that I was going to be accountable for those decisions because a lot of times those decisions are going to impact safety. But if I felt like we needed to be more conservative on a product design for a certain age child, I couldn't back down like I had to really because ultimately I'm the one that's accountable. So I feel like authenticity, accountability and then number three, just communication and transparency. You know, just really and there's ways to communicate whatever the message is in a positive way. Like I've always seen myself as a person like cup half full or overflowing if it's wine. You know, to bring like a positive energy and positive, you know, just vibe to any, whatever. I mean, you're going to be in some very difficult conversations, right? But if you can stream a little bit of positivity and a little bit of kind of energy, authenticity, transparency into those conversations. So, Jill, I think I gave you like four. Yeah. well that's because as we go we learn that there's different skills we need right there's different phases too of you know your career I think I had to come in as I know nothing about sensory well I know very little so I have to learn I have to like listen and be that active listener and absorb from my colleagues you know and then I really you know stay curious right like I had you know, this idea, like I really wanted to get into feeding development. So that curiosity, I think, you know, really, and then being open to learn from anyone, you know, it could be, you know, a six month old baby that I'm watching on a video, but I'm learning from them. Like I'm learning something from them and I learned something. I feel like, yeah, just being open to learn something new every day. And one thing I've had to do, cause I remember I said, I kind of got thrown into this role and I had to like really fake it till I made it, but having to admit when I don't have the answer. Having to admit that I don't know, like, that's a great question. I don't know, even though you consider me the expert in this area. I don't know. And let's go. Let me do some research and let's find the answer. Let me reach out to people who, you know, know more about that than I do. Yeah. And I think that's been a part of being authentic, right? Like, you don't know. You're going to go research. You're going to go find the answer. And I think this authenticity, you know, it's a part of our mission to help people show up in that way, right? To help leaders lead from this authentic place. Because that's, you know, for my opinion, I feel like when you are authentic, then you are self-aware, right? Like, you know yourself, you know how you want to show up. You know, the best way to show up in situations. So I'm curious, like as you thought about how to be your most authentic self, even when you need to provide pushback or, you know, stand in what you're saying. How difficult was that? And how did you get over that barrier of everyone's like, Sarah, we got to go. And you're like, time out. We need to do more. We need to do more here. And I'm passionate about it. And I feel like this is the right decision, so I'm standing in it. How hard was that? And how were you able to do that, I'm sure, more than once? Yeah. And I think, number one, I would say building relationships. So I remember reading a book, and it might have been, know how like the nice the nice girl doesn't get the corner office or something it's a but um but they said you should you should spend a third of your day building relationships like because that's how important it is you know in business today is building relationships and then if people you build that relationship and people trust you then i think you can bring your authentic self and you can go to them and say hey I'm on the line like if this product were to injure a baby or to hurt a baby, you know, or this brand new package that we really want to go for, it could be, you know, like has risks like that's on me. And so, you know, having those open and honest conversations, you know, so I think really, you know, and I've been lucky because I have been at the same place for the same organization for twenty years. And so a lot of those relationships are built. And then I think, you know, you kind of, you know, I hate to use the word reputation, but then, you know, as new people come in, they're like, oh, you've been here for that long. And, you know, I think that continuity has really helped me in my career, that continuity. But, you know, it's, yeah, it's sometimes hard to be authentic, to show your true self. I think once they get to know you, they really enjoy that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I love that percentage, like, thirty percent of your time. And I highlight that because when we think about relationship building, I think it's always one of it's something that we see quite often that's deprioritized. Like, we know it's important, but this task list is big. I have all of these things to do and I'm interacting with people along the way. And we are and we know relationships are built in everyday moments. But building those relationships take intention. And carving out that time to actually set that foundation like you talked about. It happens over time. But if you're not intentional and you think, gosh, I'm just going to have that moment with them in that meeting that I'm in with them for thirty minutes, that in itself isn't enough. And so I love that you bring that up because it is often a lower priority. And I think you talking about it helps like reawaken that it is a priority and it needs to be something that we think of as part of our standard work. Yeah. You know, Jill, I always try to be, I always love to be one of the first people like on a team's call. Cause you know, we have a lot of, we have, you know, we're dealing with people in multiple locations. So, you know, we do a lot on teams, but it's like that first minute or two before you get the consensus, you know, to, and you get to just chat with people. I'm like, hey, how's your day going? You know, like check in with them. You know, I've been on, and this is quite regular in my environment, like we have an agenda for these like weekly meetings, right? Like teams you're meeting with on a weekly basis. And it's mostly the functional team. So when I meet with a quality team, you know, in Fremont, the first agenda item is check-in. So everybody's given like thirty seconds just to say, how's your week going? Or whoever's leading the meeting will bring some type of fun, you know, not like an icebreaker, but kind of, you know, almost like a check-in. Hey, how's your week going? And it makes such a big difference. I feel like it gives everybody who's like running into the meeting, it gives everyone a chance to just kind of like take a deep breath and realize like, hey, we're a team here. We're a team here. We care about how everyone's feeling. you know, and just let you kind of make that transition, like, okay, now we're in this quality function meeting and we're all going to check in with each other and see how, you know, how we're emotionally and physically feeling this week. I think those things have really, like, I like to be one of the first people on the call, so I get to, like, just you know chit chat with people a little bit before the meeting starts and i feel like a lot of people devalue that because they don't realize that you actually use that because you have that time you use it in the relationships that you're building right like the times that you need to give the feedback or the times you need to stand in what you're saying like you have built that relationship over time and now you're like cashing in when you need to have a tough conversation around it. And people, I feel like don't think about it as much. And it's funny because Jill and I were just talking about this with a client who's really working on trying to build the dynamics of their team. And we kind of got into a conversation on like, leaders want to build these high-performing teams. They want to build these teams that are highly productive and they're working well together. But we skip the step of building relationships and building trust and building safe spaces. That is the foundation so that, yeah, you can just give feedback to Tia, who's not on your team, that has a different manager, you can come straight to me because we've built that relationship. I have that trust. I know that you are safe. I know that you're not going to tell my manager, but you're going to let me work it out. Whatever that happens to be, that relationship has been built. And I think sometimes leaders skip that step. Agreed. And something that just popped into my head is a program that we have at Nestle called Coffee Roulette. I know it sounds kind of crazy, but you can join this coffee roulette. And then like once a month, you'll get paired with someone else who's joined coffee roulette. And it might be someone you've never met before, ever. And, you know, and if you're both agreeable, you set up like a fifteen minute coffee. and you drink a great espresso and you get to meet someone and i'll just say like during my two week i like i keep a list of all my coffee roulette people and then i literally like tried to see as many of them as i could when i was in switzerland like in person like oh no we don't have to do it you know like But it's, you know, and I have learned so much from these people who, I mean, there was, you know, someone in legal the other day, someone in purchasing, you know, someone in procurement, a completely like different field that I don't normally deal with, like one to one. But just to have that fifteen minutes to be like, I'd like to get to know you and, you know, and to share and like to start building those friendships, I think. So it's like within our teams and within our sites. But then I think, you know, even the broader like um and that's what i appreciate about IAFP so much as well because i think they offer so many opportunities to do that like through the welcome committee and you know like putting like first-time attendees with you know like um with like experienced i i'm trying to think what we what they called the program but yeah that's one of the best i know i want to use the right term because term for those people who've been to the meeting before, you know, and just even the mentoring program through IAFP or, you know, ways to like, you know, get involved in the PDGs and, you know, I mean, and then meet students and, you know, different people. I just love that the networking aspect of, you know, like what some of these organizations give us as well. to meet people outside of our companies. Cause there's so much, you know, like, I mean, being with Nestle, which is humongous, like there's so many opportunities within, but it's really important. I love hearing about, you know, people outside as well. You know, I really like hearing about once again, the culture that you're in, how they promote and create these moments to make this happen. And that sends that message that building relationships and getting to know people is important to us as, as an organization. So one, there's that part, but then two really like for people to sign up, to do that and participate, it takes both of that opportunity with, with that. And the fact that the organization is like also making that opportunity. Yes. You know, not just, not just we'll go do that, but like we actually helped set this up and it's part of what we do because it is so important. Mm hmm. And it ensures like we talked about the path of least resistance. Right. It takes away some barriers on like, OK, it's already kind of set up for me. I just need to sign up. Right. I need to sign up. I need to make the fifteen minutes, you know, and then I need to just go go and do. So it's... You have to sign up. But you have to take a step to sign up. You have to take a step. And you have to make a little bit of the effort, right, to make that time. To make that time and then, you know, schedule that coffee. But in my experience, it's been worth it every time. Everyone has been, like, just such a positive experience. Yeah. I haven't had a bad one. So it keeps me coming back. I love that. yeah i love that that is that is great especially when you think about like culture right and how can you create these moments for people to connect with each other and build those relationships okay sarah we've covered a lot of ground and i love hearing about how you have like paved the way with you know how you've gone through your career how you've worked in these other spaces how you've written your own job description like these different versions of what you've gone through And I'm curious, as you look ahead, is there something that you want to build or contribute to this industry that simply doesn't exist yet? Oh, my. Okay. So the first thing that comes to mind is when we think food safety, I think everyone immediately thinks micro. And then the second is chemical, right? Because we've got our three areas. So I mean, the last like, twelve years, I work in physical hazards. And I know we have a PDG with an IAFP, but I just, I always feel like sort of like the redheaded stepchild to micro and chemical. So I think in my, like, yeah. So my next, I guess, generation is to really, you know, get out there and lobby. When I work in physical hazards, there's not a lot of like regulatory guidance in physical hazards. I mean, for foreign bodies, we have like the FDA hardened, which is probably about fifty plus years old and has never been updated. Wow. Yeah. So I think it's for me, like getting out there and like lobbying for, I guess, just more, more, more knowledge, more to, you know, really protect our consumer products, you know, like safety, like for everything. And it might not only be food. I think, you know, there's some good things in toys and, you know, packaging and beverage, beverage bottles and things like that. But really trying to bring this together. And while we're working with, you know, government agencies or maybe, you know, some of these, um, you know, more like nonprofit organizations, but I think I would like to get a little bit more into the lobbying area and kind of just raise more awareness for injuries in the consumer product field. Oh, we have no key here. I love the visitor. Well, that definitely sounds like it's needed in the industry. And that it's time to take a look at physical hazards in a different way and how has it shifted over the past half century. Well, and I think it expands, too. When I hear you talk about that, Sarah, food safety is so much more than just one thing. It's so much more than micro. It's so much more than chemical. And there isn't one path. There isn't one credential. There isn't only one problem to solve. and i think that is i think some of the beauty and also the pain in food safety and food science because it's there are so many disciplines that are part of it and it's you know i'm a little bit biased probably one of the most specialized but meaningful and even the most technically rigorous when we think about what's in the food industry for careers and you know people that are in this space you know get glimpses of it so your story helps build into a space that people probably haven't considered as much as others. So, so grateful to have you here on the show today. Thank you. Thank you. It's been so wonderful. You two are, I mean, it just, you made it so easy. You make it easy. You said it's just a conversation. It's a conversation. That's what we love about Real Talk. And for the people who are listening to us, if you're like, yes, I need to ask for what I want, or I want to show up as my authentic self, or maybe you're trying to figure out what's next for you, we're so happy that you joined us today. This conversation was amazing for it. Of course, we love to hear what you have going on. So connect with us on LinkedIn or go to our website and schedule a culture conversation with us because we are interested in what you are doing and how you are thinking about culture, leadership and movement in your career. Yeah. And I'd say, I think in the show notes, we'll even link the download for culture change starts with me. That's really thinking about what kind of like how you lead in food and like what your next path is and stay tuned in November. We're going to have, um, you know, a special event where it really is thinking about your leadership as you think about the next year and what you want to do. So, you know, we, we always say at the end of this show that leadership is not a one person show. Culture doesn't just grow on its own. It takes intention and it takes a system. So we love having you here for Real Talk. That's today's show. Thank you. Thank you, everyone.
