S4E4: Tired of Culture Initiatives That Go Nowhere? Here Is the Piece That Was Always Missing.

October 06, 2026

There is a real and growing frustration with culture work in organizations — and it is not because belonging and leadership development are bad ideas. It is because culture initiatives have almost always been designed to change other people. The survey measures what others think. The training tells others what to do differently. The plan describes the gaps in others. The leader who commissioned it all was never the subject of the work. Nobody asked them to go first. That is not a personal failure. It is a systemic gap in how culture change has been taught and sold to organizations. This episode of Real Talk with Catalyst Food Leaders cofounders Tia Glave and Jill Stuber, names that gap directly — inviting the exhausted leader into a reframe rather than pointing blame — and makes the case that the missing piece was never another initiative. It was the leader's own behavior, and the willingness to look there first.

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Episode Transcript

hello everyone welcome to real talk happy Monday welcome to Monday happy Monday it feels like a Monday at least over here it does it does yeah like kicking the week off and like here we are first full week of October oh wow it is yeah it is and October is busy for catalysts It is. If you haven't signed up for our email list, hop on over to our website and sign up because then you'll get to hear all the latest, where we can all connect and be in person together. Yes, because we are out and about in October, which I feel like it's the same every October, but we love seeing people in person. We are. I know we talked about that a little bit, but really, you know, for Real Talk, we're here really to talk real talk, not just like where to find us. Yeah, yeah. You know, one thing, I was talking to someone about Real Talk a couple of weeks ago, and they were talking about how how they love tuning into Real Talk because of the topics that we talk about. And we get these topics from you all when we have conversations, when we meet you in person, when you email us, all the above. And I feel like today's topic is something that is top of mind for people. It is, you know, this really stems also from, you know, just conversations that we've heard kind of like on the fringe or as people talk about culture and they're like, you can just tell there's this, are we talking about culture again? And then I think it was about two weeks ago, I ran across a post on LinkedIn from someone who was using this term called culture bloat. Yeah. And I was like, what is that? So I really had to kind of lean in and see what they were talking about. And that really is setting the stage for our conversation today. So. Yeah, very, very interesting. We're, of course, curious of your perspective. So if you're on YouTube. Write in the comments. We can see your comments. Put in the comments of your perspective as we have these conversations. Or if you're listening on our podcast, send us an email about how you feel about it, what your perspectives are about, because this whole idea of culture bloat is interesting. It is. And if you've been here before, welcome back. And if you are new to Real Talk by Catalyst Food Leaders, we are happy to have you here. This is where we like to have honest conversations to lead people forward in food. I'm Jill Stuber. This is Tia Glaive. And today's topic, I think, might even be a little uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah. And like you said, this is one where... I feel like it might be a little uncomfortable just because it's kind of getting underneath like why are we why does culture feel this way for us right like even in the in the title when you think about like all these culture initiatives or you know and we obviously we have our own thoughts about that um but it feels like things aren't going even in food safety culture right one of that's starting to come up is should we even call it food safety culture? Because we have not been successful around improving it as a whole, right? As an industry, as a whole, even though organizations see movement, some organizations do, most are not. Yeah, and you know, when I, that LinkedIn post that kind of teed this up, when they talked about culture bloat, they really were talking about this space where it felt like when we talk about culture, it's so soft and it's like squishy and it's focused on people and not on outcomes. And, you know, they really kind of I don't want to say they bashed, but they really had some strong opinions about, you know, we've spent enough time trying to think about how to include people and making safe spaces and doing all these things. Like we need to get back to, we have a business to run. We have outcomes to hit. We have things to do. And if people like can't get on board with that and be accountable and do all that, then maybe they're not the right people for your organization. Yeah. And hey, you know what? There's truth to that. There are some cultures that I'm like, wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole. Right. Knowing that before you go in, if you're able to. Yes. But I think the part that really resonated with me and when I hear people talk about culture in this way is. It makes me sad because what it really tells me is there's this belief system that's kind of broken. This belief that people are worth investing in, that people are the ones who are actually driving business. And that's the part. that I think is the conversation. Organizations always want to see ROI on things. And we get that. Nobody wants to be in a space where you're like, you can't run a business and lose money. That's the bottom line. We get that. But there's ways to do business with integrity. And then there's also ways to do business that probably don't display as much integrity. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And when I think about investing in people, I think about investing in the long term. It's like short term gains over long term gains. And I feel like the industry, the food industry in particular, is seeing that. It's probably one of the reasons that drove this person to post online is because the industry is struggling. But it's struggling because we're trying to do the same things we've been doing. When we look at organizations, and I know we're going to talk about this throughout, Well, when we look at organizations that actually do invest in their people that are creating safe spaces that they do extremely well. you know, they see it in their bottom lines. When you look at organizations that halfway do things, right? Like, I feel like those are the people that's kind of like in this space and they're saying, well, we did a pizza party for everyone or we told everyone that we have an open door policy or we, you know, and just, oh, we have these town halls and we recognize people once a quarter. it's like doing these things that aren't aren't nice right but they're not really getting down to what do your people need right how do we inspire them to move forward and drive and drive results it's almost like these half-hearted um these halfway you know sort of initiatives that's not really That's not really providing safe spaces, right? That's not really providing your people with the leadership skills that they need to be able to lead. And those organizations don't see the results that they deserve. No. And, you know, we often share a stat that came out of Stanford, and I believe it was Culture Partners, where they did a study and found that companies with strong cultures make four times the profits as companies with weak cultures. So when I hear people talk about culture bloat, I think you must not be that interested in money and profit. because that's not the only statistic that will say that when you take care of people, people take care of business. So I think, you know, today part of our conversation really is around like, what is it that stands in the way with these belief systems or other things that keep people from really wanting to dive in and improve culture? Because I think there's the top line, like where people are like, oh yeah, yeah, we want to change culture. We do. But then when you actually ask them, like, are you willing to do the work it takes? There's a really like there is. I don't say there's resistance, but there's certainly. And tell me what you think. But I mean, there just isn't this understanding. There's this. Well, we're going to do all our normal things. Oh, and then we'll sprinkle culture stuff on top. Right. Yes. Without this recognizing like your core parts of driving your business are taking care of culture. And then you bring in the initiatives that you need to drive business. But like this is the foundation. Right. That's a, that's at your core. I feel like when, and that's, that's really hard to do. You know, when you were telling me about this post about culture bloat bloat, it's almost like, well, you're, you're almost kind of trying to take a shortcut. You know, you're trying to take the easy way out where I'm just going to tell you what to do. It reminds me of like parenting, right? Like if the more you try to say, no, you're going to do this, you're going to do this, the more pushback, you get versus a more collaborative environment, right? The more that you're like, well tell me what you think about it, right? And kind of leading them to, right, helping them understand what's the best decision for you. You know, obviously there's different ages, right? But that's the harder part of parenting that's the harder part of being a leader that's the harder part of just even honestly being a person versus saying no i'm going to tell you what to do i'm going to i'm going to give you everything i'm going to you know do it my way you know that kind of thing that's that's almost easy to be able to say do it my way do it this way do it here Versus saying, okay, I have a team here that brings their own unique paths here, their own intelligence. I need a source from my group. That takes a little bit more time. That takes more skill than just, I'm just going to tell you what to do. Yeah. Yeah. And sorry, if you hear me laugh or see my face look funny for a moment, it's because I think my internet's being a little wonky today. But yeah, I think that's the thing. It's these organizations that have this belief system that it's almost like not everybody is able to contribute meaningfully, and then they're not worthy of growth and support. Which is obviously opposite of what we think, where we think about if you want to build capacity in your organization, you need to build capacity in every single person. Yes, yes. And these companies that take high performers and focus on them, like, yay, that's good. But getting twenty five percent more out of one person is not that much five percent more and out capacity you know out go beyond the capacity of that one individual that I think is a high performer. Right. And I think that's the part where, as we think about culture, people's minds still are on how do I have high performers and help them grow? How do I have these people that I think fit with the organization and whatever definition that is and keep them and move them around instead of thinking everybody here can contribute more? How do I inspire that and empower them to do that? Yeah, yeah, I think this is, you know, this is going to our first talking point is that there's really this belief underneath culture around these people are the right ones in the organization and these people are are not, you know, and in reality, people need different things, right? Like even your high performers, right? They need different things than people who you might not consider a high performer today. And for people who've worked in talent that had teams, we've had people that were not high performers that became high performers with the right tools, with the right leadership, with the right skills. People can become high performers. But I think one of the things where organizations invest in high performers only, they're again trying to take a shortcut, right? Instead of actually investing in their people and giving them the tools that they need, all people, right? Because I mean, let's be honest, it's expensive to hire people. You're still hiring people, you're still paying them every day, but you're trying to take the shortcut in leadership and only invest in people you've deemed worthy on whatever scale that you're using and have decided, okay, this is where I'm going to invest because you really don't want to invest. You don't want to spend the money or use the resources or whatever it happens to be to actually bring all of your people up, all the people that you're paying to be here, all the people you're paying to make decisions. you know execute and make products you know you're almost taking a shortcut in my opinion yeah you know i think it's fascinating because it's you know built in these structures that we have in organizations where well gosh if i if i develop that specialist now they're going to want maybe either a new role in title and or more money and i think organizations simply don't know how to navigate that yeah because there's this belief of, well, I still need people just to be in their roles. And so when you think about that, like this is one of those beliefs of like, how do organizations get to be more creative when you think about growth within a role? And like being so like hard, like these hard sides on what people are supposed to do. And, you know, this differentiation between here are some of my core responsibilities and here are my growth spaces for growth. Mm-hmm. And thinking about how that inspires people. Not everybody says, gosh, if you're going to have me grow, then I need more money or I need a different title. Right. But that's also that's because it's probably been built into those systems. They've seen when people grow, they move to different roles versus it's natural for all of us to be growing and learning in our own role. Yes, yes. And organizations who have figured that out, they've actually taken time to think about how does someone grow in role here? What if someone actually wants to stay in this role because they love it, it works for them, maybe it works for their lifestyle, whatever it happens to be. But like you said, that person still wants growth. So organizations that do well at this, they actually take the time to think about How do I develop a person that's in this role that is more of a technical leader that wants to stay in this space versus how do I grow someone that wants to move on and wants to see different things or want to move in other spaces? How do I grow that person in that role? What type of things should they do? in this role. And that takes time to do, right? That not just takes time to do, but the leaders actually have to have the skills to be able to have those conversations. So you have to invest in those leaders to have those conversations. And then you have to invest in the people that need to grow, right? Whether or not they are going to one day be CEO in the organization or they're going to retire in that role. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, you know, I think the other part in there is so often we focus just on technical skill growth. Right. There has to be that balance. There has to be technical skill growth. There needs to be growing as a human so that we interact better together. We have more awareness of ourself. And, you know, we see this all the time where there's a lot of offerings for executives and senior leaders. You know, there's often executive coaching or executive circles for them. And that's fantastic. And then now, lately, we see a lot of people, because of retention problems in the food industry, that really try to grow, like, I'm going to say kind of frontline leaders. Like, there's a little bit more investment. Maybe not for a line lead. Maybe not even for a supervisor. but they're really trying to develop some growth there just because they have such high turnover. Yes. But it seems like in that middle space, like if you aren't in one of those groups, you often get overlooked when it comes to growth. I think that's one of the reasons like it's this middle manager squeeze, right? Which we've talked about before. And one of the reasons I feel like this is one of the top reasons why culture is not moving forward. um in the industry is that we really don't spend a lot of time on middle managers and they are the ones that's driving culture yes they're the ones that's driving it they can make or break it in an organization Well, and I think that's part of this whole like seeing culture bloat because they've spent so much time in these spaces, like on the tail ends, bell curve, right? We have all these people in the middle that are responsible for culture every day that we haven't really given the support and attention to be able to help move culture. And then because of that, then we feel like we're not moving things forward fast enough. Right. Yes. Yes. We see it as a, you know, as a failure when in reality, we're not investing in the people who are driving, driving culture. Yeah. You know, I think with that, one of the other things that we see, even if it's not intentional, is there's still this belief that runs through management. Yes. Now we like to call leadership because it sounds nicer, but it's still very command and control driven. Oh, yes. Right. There is still this whole like, what are your major responsibilities? What are your expectations? I tell people what to do and I'm going to hold you accountable. Yes. Like that's what a lot of belief systems when we think about culture are about. Like we just need to hold more people accountable. We just need to hold more people accountable. Right. That's part of why we see this culture bloat because it's culture is not about just holding people accountable. No, no. Like you said, it's, it's the core, right? It's how you make decisions. It's how you come together. It's how you discuss, It's how you discuss things. As we were prepping for this real talk and this piece around command and control, I think it's one of the reasons why you hear things like culture start at the top, because we're used to this command and control, when in reality, every part of the organization has a part of culture. It's not starting from the top. It's not starting from the bottom. It's not starting from the middle. Each part of us, each of us has a role in culture. And if we're not playing our roles in culture, we see or we feel that culture is not moving forward. We don't get the returns that we think we're going to get because our leaders are trying to play this role in culture that is really not theirs. Or many, many times culture is being put on the middle managers when we talk about this middle manager squeeze. but they don't have the right skills to be able to push culture forward. So they stall or it looks like they're failing or they're not hitting their goals or they go back to exactly what you're talking about, this command and control type of leadership. And it still feels like nothing is going forward. Yeah. And I think about, you know, it's that time of year where lots of people are starting end of year performance reviews or thinking about that they're coming up. And so often those things are measured against compliance. Like how well did you meet this expectation of your job description? And, you know, inherently that just drives compliance and it's a symptom of command and control versus really this thought of possibility. Like how do we encourage and how do we inspire people to grow? Because for us to move from command and control to what people say they want, commitment from people and they want more innovation from people and they want more ownership from people. And really the way to get there is by promoting that. Yes, yes. And it's, you know, another one of those things that's really woven into the fabric of so many organizations, even if we try to paint, you know, put the lipstick on a pig and make it look like it's not there. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And I feel like organizations, you know, some that we've worked with, that we've talked to, like they realize that that's hard to do. Like you almost have to break down your barriers and build yourself back up. And you have to build it in a systematic way, right? Like systemic way. You have to actually build in these systems that ensures that you're your leaders have the right resources, that they have the right skills, that they're having the right type of conversations, that they have these safe spaces, right, to be able to empower others and to be able to, yes, hold them accountable when they need to. And when we, you know, when you kind of talk about that post from LinkedIn and it's like, oh man, we've been spending so much time like being soft and creating these safe spaces, that's really when you have these strong conversations and you really find out what's going on. You know, I like to relate it to you know, the definition of culture, and there's a few out there, but they all kind of lean down to the beliefs, the norms, and the assumptions that people have, right? Like that's at core. You're not going to find out people's assumptions or their beliefs or what do they truly value. You're not going to figure that out or find that out or know what that is if you're not creating a safe space. So it's really hard to move your culture forward if your team does not trust leadership or there's no safe spaces or you're not having conversations that are different than what you had a year ago, right? If you're not shifting that stuff, you're really not discovering what these norms, assumptions, values, beliefs, you're not discovering what those are. So your actions are on things that are actually not true. Yeah. And, you know, I have to soapbox the whole safe space for a moment because, you know, a couple of weeks ago I had a leader who said, I've created safe space. Why don't they just come to me? And I was like, oh, interesting. that we think we've created a safe space, but yet people still aren't willing to step into that space and share what they need. And then the other day, I actually had a newsletter come through from another culture coach who I love, who was talking about, you know, just kind of the same thing. And it's something, Tia, you and I talk a bit about too, that you know, there's this place of safety and extending it. And the newsletter talked about sometimes we need the courage to step in, even if it doesn't feel as safe as we need. And while I understand that, I think the other part is when we have a culture where there's real repercussions and there's a differential in power status and there are all these other factors that Like those are real. And so when I hear someone say, I can't believe people just don't speak up. Like I have an open door policy and it's safe. You have to think about those other factors. Once again, these are the parts that are like built into this culture bloat that people don't want to see. It's almost like they don't want to see it's under the blanket. It's must not be there. And it's real. And if you aren't able to have those conversations and name that, you are going to sit in the space where you feel like you've invested in culture, but you haven't really seen the ROI that you want. Yes. When I hear that, when people say, I've created a safe space, why don't they trust me? Flip that and say, yes, you've been working on creating a safe space, but you're not there yet. So what can you shift? What other conversations could you maybe even ask? Hey, these are the things that I'm doing to build trust. What else can I do? Versus it's almost like looking outward. I'm like, well, I'm doing my part. What is the other people doing versus as a leader to step in and say, what more can I do? How can I shift my behaviors to get the outcomes that I want to see? I was talking to someone, I think it was last week or maybe the week after around being the bigger person in leadership. There's something too as a leader, always being that bigger person where you are stepping into it and say, okay, what can I do differently? It's really just looking at yourself versus looking at others. You have the power to do something different. And so instead of saying, well, I've said I have an open door policy, or I said that you can come and have coffee with me at a certain time or whatever it is, if you're not seeing the outcomes that you want to see, shift. Shift, think about what else can you do or have a conversation around it. Have a conversation around it to even call out, these are the things that I'm doing, how can I do it differently? Goodness, my internet. Sorry. It keeps spooling everybody. But, you know, I think that also leads to, you know, we are so fortunate to work with a whole variety of clients and companies. Yes. And when we work with ones where they come and their leaders are like, we need to go through development before we have our team go through development. Mm-hmm. We know that we see a different level of commitment to culture. And I think that happens a lot when usually, I say usually, what happens is people are like, my team needs development. Oh, yes. And once again, that's one of these areas where when we think about culture bloat and the things that you were talking about with what do you need to shift, to even be able to answer that question, you have to have enough awareness to know that that's the question to ask. Otherwise, it does get into, well, it must be them because I've done my part. And I think like you said, being the bigger person, like you always have to be like, no, what is this about that I need to do? I mean, that part means you just, you need to ask, like, I think I did this part. Like, what else do you see that I need to do different here? You don't always have to just figure it out on your own. Like the best way to do it is to say, Hey, it feels like this isn't working or it's maybe not the way that speaks to you. What would be a better way? And you're absolutely right. That's a skill to do. That's the development that your leaders need, your senior leaders need. because we've also had those clients that tried to have conversations like that and it did not go so well. It did not go so well because they really didn't have a way to have that conversation. They really didn't have the tools to be able to ask in a different way and to to really get the outcome that they want to see. There's a skill around that, and we've seen it derail. I heard someone say this the other day, but we all know the statement, right? Like trust takes forever to build, but it can be knocked down in seconds, right? It can be knocked down. All the trust you're trying to build can be gone in a conversation. And so it's It's really dangerous, honestly, to be having conversations and you don't have the right tools to be able to make people feel safe, to make people feel like you're on their side, that we're on the same team, that we're trying to move forward towards the same goal. If anyone comes out of this conversation, I'm like, oh yeah, I definitely don't trust that leader, right? That's a mountain to overcome. Yeah. And I think that all really kind of goes into kind of that, that the whole thing there is that, you know, this is about leadership style and leadership is a system. So when we think about like how we show up as leaders, right. Lord knows, right. I'm still working on it every day too. Like what is the system that helps be more successful and create these moments so that, you know, you can show up as your best self, right. That takes practice over and over. It's not just the one time, the one class that I got it right today. It takes daily practice. And sometimes we stray away from it. And then we're in a season where we're stuck in the work. How do we have moments where we're able to pause and pull our head up above that work for a moment and go, where am I? And that's part of what gets us culture bloat because people get so into just the doing, doing, doing that we forget to pause and ask the bigger questions about the leadership system. yeah that reminds me of someone that was in boot camp and she had been working our organization twenty years twenty plus years and she joined boot camp because her manager signed up the whole team and i remember at the beginning of boot camp she's like i don't know really what i'm gonna get out of this But as we continue to work through the leadership skills and building those, her perspective was, wow, you're right. I have all new people around me, and I have not built relationships with them. I used to do that. I remember her saying that multiple times. I used to have one on ones. I used to have these conversations. I used to do this. I used to write and but there was no check in process on what you're saying. There was no time to stop and reflect and think about, OK, what what type of leader do I need to be this year? What type of leader do I need to be with all new people on my team? What type of leader? You know, whatever it happens to be. You know, she really she's a really good example of not really having that time to sit and reflect where she was just doing, doing, doing, doing, doing. And then now everyone's like, wow, this person is really not a team player, right? This is not a team player. People really doesn't want to work with this person, all the other things. And this person is like, why? I've just been doing the same thing I've been doing for twenty years. But in reality, to your point, there had been no time to reflect. and think and really practice um these skills right it's almost like she had forgotten and it's not it's not just about her i mean i've done it right like uh you know people have done it i'm sure people that's listening is like oh yeah you know i used to do a lot of things when i first started my career or when i first joined an organization but then you get busy And that's one of the reasons why we talk to organizations all the time. How do you build this in as a system? How do you make sure that you have these touch points with people, that they have time to reflect, that they're thinking about not just the technical part of their job, but the leadership side of their job? And how are they growing in that space? How are they getting better? How are they practicing that muscle? If you don't have that there, you will become stagnant. Just like from a technical standpoint, if you're not growing, you're stagnant. Yeah. And it has to be layers. I remember one of our first strategic cohorts where we had, I would say, a seasoned middle manager join. who is like almost blown away because they had spent so much time and focus on making sure that all of their direct reports had development that when she came to the cohort, she was like, wow, I didn't even realize it has been so. It's skills and that moment of recognizing I. need to continue my own journey yes otherwise i too get stuck in the doing doing doing and that contributes to culture bloat yeah this feeling of while we are i feel like we're doing things but we're not moving forward I think the other part, when we think about culture bloat and why we hang on to command and control, part of it's because it's all woven in, but we're afraid if we shift that it will cost us more. But when I think about command and control, I think about when I hear, oh my gosh, that new generation doesn't like to work. That's code for we don't like your culture, people. Lauren, so true. We don't like how we're being treated. So true. We don't see that there's space for us to grow, learn, and be inspired. When you have people that leave and you didn't even see it coming, that's because your culture didn't support them. You didn't support them. We all have have seen people on teams where it feels like they just kind of skate under the radar and like do enough to get by, even though, you know, they could contribute more like all of that wasted cost. is what keeps us stuck in command and control. And even if the company is making some profit, because most are, you could make way more if you just engage people. Exactly. Exactly. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. It's costing a lot. We talk about all the time, we kind of joke all the time about just working in manufacturing and seeing all the waste, all the product waste. There's a lot of people waste too. And that we're kind of stuck in this cycle of command and control and therefore, to your point, losing people, losing people either through retention or engagement. that is just waste. It's just waste in an organization. And it's funny, if you're listening, you're like, well, that younger generation really does not like to work. I watched this video, now it's probably been like a year ago, where it was this YouTube video of all the things the previous generation said about said about the younger generation and every, I'm talking about this went back to like the seventeen hundreds, sixteen hundreds. They all were saying the generation after them was lazy and didn't want to work. It was fascinating. It was fascinating. I think there was a part in like the twenties or the forties where it was a little bit different, but literally every single generation was saying the one before it was lazy and did not want to, did not want to work. So, you know, right? Like are we all just lazy and don't want to work right like i think we wouldn't say that about our our own selves it's this missing piece of we're really not shifting our culture to match what's happening in the world to match what's happening with people and how they want to be treated And you're right, like the more we learn, the more technology evolves, the younger generation is not sticking around. They're just not sticking around to be in a culture that does not treat them like they're valuable. Yeah. You know, and I think about, once again, I'm gonna go back to this whole culture bloat, like we don't see the results that we want. I think you also have to keep your eyes open for people who they're, they're partway engaged. But they also don't have anywhere, I'm going to say anywhere to really go. And I say that because there are people, and I remember when I first was working years ago, my first job out of college, I remember seeing people who had worked where I was in an analytical lab at Land O'Lakes. I remember seeing people there and I was like, you've been here twenty years working in the lab? Yikes. Like I was judgy. I was kind of judgy back then. But I also when I saw what they could do and knew that they could do more, but yet they felt stuck where they were at. Part of that was family, location, all of these other things. And so while they gave and gave, we also didn't, we couldn't grow because we weren't allowing them to grow into what they could really do. Right. And that in itself is another way that this whole culture bloat conversation comes up where we have these players who we kind of keep them in a box and they feel stuck. So they don't actually, they can't move, but we're really not developing them. Right. I would say that this is the cost of command and control. Mm-hmm. you know, like where people feel stuck is because like, oh, you know, if you are a lab technician, we just tell you what to do versus like, no, they actually know a lot more about the product, about, you know, even technically they are actually making decisions and should make decisions versus like, no, I'm just going to command and control what this lab is doing or what this receiving team is doing or insert places where people feel stuck. That's the cost of command and control versus actually leaning in to what what it is they see are the issues right they see where you should should go next where you should focus on it's just a waste right like it's just a waste of the talent that you have yeah And I think there's this other part, like when we think about cost, where once again, when people aren't able to use their voice, there is this place where the person who seems to have the most power, they are the ones who their decision is what rules or there's lots of agreement and consensus because people think of dissent as disloyalty all right and you know we see this type of dynamic being in the food manufacturing industry, a lot between operations and other groups or marketing and other groups. Right. I mean, it feels everybody feels like it's everywhere. Food safety, quality and other groups. But there's a lot to be said when it comes to this, because we have seen like I personally have been on teams where I've seen this and I've also we've worked with clients where we say the same thing. Where when, you know, for example, there's some type of policy that's, you know, a good food safety policy and someone's like, I don't like it. And it slows down the process. It makes whatever they're developing or trying to do take longer. Because now instead of being like, hey, we have the same game plan and we're moving forward. We have someone who has a power differential who's like, I don't like that. Our command and control culture takes over. It doesn't allow somebody else to be able to speak up. So again, the waste of the time, of the resources that is spent because we don't have a culture that is safe and we're still stuck in command and control, those are real dollars, real dollars. And people don't really talk about the other side of the leader kind of stepping in and commanding the direction, and then it's not successful. Then where do they look? Well, they look to their team, right? They look to, oh, well, that person did that. Or this is who's doing that. Or who let this? Or they didn't say something. They didn't speak up. When in reality, they're the ones that's driving the conversation. They are the ones that's making the decisions. And when you look in organizations that have strong cultures, first of all, you don't see a blame game because it really is a team effort. It's not one person kind of commanding and controlling. But you definitely don't see the leader who does take a responsibility in ownership of the final decision look back at other people and say, well, that person didn't do this or that person. When in reality, it's like, no, you you told your team how to show up. You showed your team how to show up. You were there making decisions. You decided you didn't like this. You decided these things. It's not on anyone. It's not on anyone else. And what you find in an organization, because there's times when the leader needs to say, you know what, let's go this way. And they provide the direction. If it doesn't work out, that same leader is saying, I thought this was the way to go. Did not work out. Let's debrief. Let's problem solve. Whatever the next step is so we can figure out what's the next place. They don't really blame other people as the leader. It's like these are the things. We talked about this, I think, last week or the week before around red flags of culture. That's a red flag when your leader is not taking ownership and blaming other people when they are the loudest voice when it comes to giving the commands. I think I lost you. Oh, no. Oh, no. There you are. yeah I mean these yeah we're going to talk more about those that was episode two of season four and next week at BRCGS we're going to talk about that even more but you know in command and control when you don't have a culture that allows for people to speak up and to break down these power differential walls like there is true operational and like reputational risk on the line so when we think about the cost that it that it i guess takes or that organizations take on because they're in command and control like that's part of it yeah yeah so absolutely absolutely but once again companies with strong culture significantly outperform their peers so When we think about how we shift to that once again, like all of these systems, like HR, I'm going to start with HR and these whole job description things and the, we have to rate outside. Like we can value people internally. Right. Yes. Yes. They do not because it's compared to somebody else that probably isn't even doing what they do. Like I get that there's like some need to do that, but you can actually break out of some of that. And don't let that limit your ability to grow the culture that you need to grow. One of the things, just working in this space, people come to us all the time, what KPIs should we have? What should we be doing? Your culture is uniquely yours. And so to really figure out what are those, how do I build this trust here and that safe space is there? I think it really goes into really our next point around culture does not change until leaders do. You have to take a look at how am I showing up in these spaces? What do my leaders do when there's conflict? Is it what we talked about, like this top leader that's trying to command and control? Or do they sit back and listen to the group and add when it makes the most sense to add? What are your leaders doing? And if you're thinking about how we really do need a culture shift, start with your leaders. Yeah. What are your leaders doing? Yeah, I think about all the organizations that are like, we want to do differently. We're going to have a breakthrough year. We're going to do this. But they continue to approach things in the same way, not only from how they plan and execute on things, but also from how they show up as leaders. And that's really a tough place to be when you're like, I really want to do things different. Like if we don't change, if leaders, if we as leaders don't change our behaviors, we're going to get the same thing. And you see organizations still doing the same thing, right? Still doing the surveys. Oh, no, we haven't been changing as leaders. It's been three years. Let's do another survey or let's do this or let's do let's do that. When really you're what are you communicating to people that you're soliciting their feedback, but you're not doing anything with it? Yeah, to me, that's one of the core parts when we think about culture surveys that I have a little bit of a err about because, you know, typically we give out the culture survey and it comes back and the group of leaders look at it and go, what does everybody need to do different here? And there's a plan and it's, you know, doing things, but often how do you challenge yourself to just turn that lens back on to yourself? I think about what's the one thing, right? Here at Catalyst, we're always like, what's the one thing you're willing to do different and start doing that today? Wouldn't it be amazing if that's actually the question that came out of surveys? Like if you get a survey result and as you're thinking, as you're listening to us today, like think about like a survey result that you got and the plan maybe that you built around and your organization built. What if the question really was, okay, you got this feedback. What are you going to do differently based on that feedback? Yeah. Yeah. That would actually be an interesting survey question. Like what's one thing I'm willing to do differently and what's one thing I want my leader to do differently. Because once again, otherwise the people taking the surveys are just the recipients of whatever somebody's punting over the fence to them versus like they too, right. There's, there's shared responsibility and culture, but we also have to be willing to, to recognize that. And I think sometimes the plans are, it's like, again, these like overarching, and I like to pick on like recognition because anytime there's something where it's like, oh, our teams feel like that they're not being recognized enough. We always add something in a quarterly meeting. I don't know what it is, but it's like, oh, well, we will start to recognize people at our annual or quarterly town halls. Again, not a bad thing. But if you ask yourself, what am I going to do differently from this? Then you go down to the leader to say, how do I recognize my team on a day-to-day basis or on a weekly basis? What are some areas that they feel like they're not getting recognized in? I remember with my sanitation team, they kind of felt like they weren't getting the recognition that they deserve. And I remember having the exact conversation. What is it that you want the organization or you want the plant to know about you? What do you want them to recognize you for? And I started sending out these weekly sanitation emails on what's happening. And they loved it, right? Because that's the type of recognition that they were looking for. They weren't looking for the quarterly star or the rah-rah in front. And they weren't looking for that. They actually were quite shy and didn't want some of that attention. They just wanted the plant to know that, hey, we're not just here in the background. We're not just here to help you clean up large messes. We're actually maintaining the plant. We actually have priorities ourselves. We're actually doing, like, that's the recognition that they wanted. And if I hadn't asked the question, I'm like, what are you looking for? How can I help you in this situation? What can I do differently every day, every week, every month to help you get that recognition that you're looking for? That's a very different question on, you know, instead of like, oh, we're missing recognition. Let's just add a gold star to, yeah, a meeting that already exists or create a meeting when, is that what your team is really looking for? And is that something, and is that really what you can do every day, every week for your team? Yeah, I think it was wasn't it the Mercer report that said the companies that are going to win the war on talent are the ones that are going to step up and really empower, engage and build culture for people in a way that is meaningful for them. And I think about this invitation. I think that's what you're extending to people with. Are you willing to examine that and how you contribute? because for that to shift it has to be or i should say the ones that are going to find the more success the ones that are going to break out of the culture bloat um maybe stereotype that's going around or issue are the ones with leaders who are going to be willing to go first ones who really are going to say One of my top priorities is taking care of people and actively doing that every day, not just after my task list is done, not just when I need to do performance reviews, not just that one time for two minutes a week when I try to open the door for them. Right. It takes effort. And it doesn't mean it's all perfect when you get started, but it's something that you intentionally say, I'm going to do different. It's a path. It's a journey. It's a system. It is. And I would say, you know, when we think about this post of culture bloat, you know, it feels like this is where we are. But when you bring up the Mercer report and, you know, McKinsey and Gartner and like everyone has ran, there's plenty of data out here to show what actually moves culture forward and That old command and control or the, oh, we need to eliminate people feeling safe at work, which again, if you actually think about the words that you're saying, I think if you think about it, it wouldn't make sense. But we have to push back on that. We're used to being in this space of command and control because that's what we've been doing. But data is showing us that it's not working. It's not working. It's not getting us the results that we want. So we have to do something different. And just even to go back to your first point, Jill, around being uncomfortable, it is very uncomfortable to shift outside of your norm, right? To say, I'm going to come at this a different way. I'm going to ask a different question. I'm going to show up in a different space. I'm going to go and talk to this This person, even though I say my door is open, I'm going to actually meet them where they are and spend time there. I'm actually going to say no to these things so that I can say yes to spending some time over here. That's hard to do. It's uncomfortable. It almost kind of goes against what we have been taught as leaders. But it's something that when done, and we have plenty of examples of it happening, that culture moves forward. It moves in the direction that we want it to be. And we don't have the retention issues or engagement issues that other organizations have. Yeah, I would even back it up even a little bit more to, you know, the uncomfortable state, those stepping into those spaces is uncomfortable, but even asking and recognizing that you are the one, right? It's not a great spot to sit in and go, oh, the common denominator here is me, right? That is not a great place to have. I mean, it doesn't feel good to be in that spot. Our brain is actively trying to protect us from thinking that we're the problem. Yes. And, you know, I've shared from the beginning about, you know, my experience about recognizing that I was the one who was in my team's way. And I was feeling uncomfortable. That was a wake-up call. So I think there's even that level of willing to step into being uncomfortable to say, wow, it's actually me. But the people who do that are the ones who are, if you're willing to step into that, that means you're also willing to examine the beliefs that you've had and think about how you can lead differently so that you can build something that is more meaningful, impactful, and once again, leads to the outcomes that you want to see. Yes, because even in your own story, you know, once you started looking at yourself and thinking about like, how do I how do I kind of show up in the space as a leader? The dynamics shifted, right? Your outcomes, you got closer to the outcomes you were even looking for, because you shifted in the way that you showed up as a leader. Absolutely. All right, well, we covered a lot today, just thinking about this whole, like, culture bloat. And if you're on this path where you're like, if Master Wheel, working on culture forever, right? It takes time. But I think today the invitation is really to pause or at least be willing to ask yourself the question about where are you stuck in culture bloat? Because the other side of that is success. Bloat is just the spot where it's a symptom of being stuck because we're not working on all the right things around culture. Right. Yes. Yes. Yes. And that's not an accusation. That's just like this recognition of like, huh, for me to get to the next place, I need to go through. I can't just stop here and expect results. I have to go through this stage to get to the other side. Yes. Yes. And I have to do something different. Right. And one thing we see it when we have conversations, like people feel that their culture is off. Right. They feel that their culture is not built on something stable or something that they can sustain or, you know, they know their systems are almost like screaming at them, like giving them all these red flags. Right. Of like not where you want to be. You know, if you're feeling that way, if you're sitting here and you're like, yes, like I feel like we're on the hamster wheel. I feel like we've had initiatives and we've talked about it and we did this and we did that, but we are still struggling with engagement. We're still struggling with retention. We're still struggling with people feeling safe at work. We're still struggling with getting the type of outcomes, the business outcomes that we want to see. We invite you to talk with us. Come send us a note. Let us know what's going on. We would love to have a conversation around it because this is really where our passion lies. This is really where we want to show up in the industry and really how we add our talents back to the industry. Like this is where our passion lies and we've seen it, right? Like we've seen companies stall out because they didn't want to put resources towards it. And we've seen cultures shift because organizations have said enough is enough. We actually we're ready for this growth. We're ready for these business outcomes that we've been trying to get. You know, sometimes for people, it's been half a decade they've been working at this. Yeah. So, you know, if that's you, our website, CatalystFoodLeaders.com, go to our contact page. Let us know. We are happy to talk with you about what a different path forward might actually look like for your organization to get through culture bloat. And it's not a pitch. It's a conversation. Sometimes we just need to know that there are other options available. Because one thing we have learned and one thing that we have advocated for is that leadership is not a one-person show. And culture will not grow on its own. There's a difference between we have good people and we have a good culture. Right. Yes. I feel like that's like snaps right there. Hey, right. Like I've been in places where I love the people I work with. I like them all as humans, but collectively we didn't have a great culture necessarily to get the results and to move in the spaces we needed to. And that's okay. You just got to recognize that. It takes intention. It takes intention to drive culture. Yes. Yes. Intention and the skills, right? The skills to build a system that you, that you want to see. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right, everyone. Well, that is today's Real Talk. And remember, culture doesn't change until leaders do. We'll catch you next time. See you next week. Bye.

S4E4: Tired of Culture Initiatives That Go Nowhere? Here Is the Piece That Was Always Missing.

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