Hello, everyone. Welcome to Real Talk with Tia and Jill and our very special guest, Kim Bryden. Welcome. Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for having me. Hello. We are so happy to kick off our Monday with you. And we know people will listen to this podcast not on the day we release it on Monday. So we are welcoming them to the listening as well. Yes, yes, yes. I know as our podcast, they kind of listen the day after or through the week. We see you in quotes, have a little quotes up. We see you and we're excited that you're here for this journey. And this conversation is really special to us because... We talk a lot about food safety. Obviously, that's our background, Jill and myself, our backgrounds in food safety, food quality, food regulatory. But we work with a lot of small businesses, helping them develop their strategic plan around food safety. And Kim and the work she has done at Curate has been amazing. And we're excited to hear her perspective around small businesses and how that relates to food safety, because you've seen it. You've seen it over the last, what, few years working with Curate. Oh, definitely. It's actually been since twenty fourteen. We started twelve years ago now and we've had a hand in impacting almost a thousand businesses directly at this point, whether it's through our educational program curate courses. or through our procurement work, Curate Connect, of which I'm sure I'll get into both in a moment here. But what I've seen over time is the return to the mission of why Curate even started, which was us trying to democratize access to knowledge and new business opportunities. And food safety goes hand in hand with both is if you don't have that access to knowledge, it curtails your ability to go after that new business opportunity. So I'm, I'm here and loving this conversation already. Yes. And we love having you here because you are, you're at this, like this intersection of, you know, where food entrepreneurs are coming in and there's economic development and building these bridges with small local producers. And I remember before you were telling us about like even like organizations and institutions and connecting these people so that they're together right here in these local areas to source from them. And that is amazing. And building that locally sourced food ecosystem, I think is a dream and an ideal that a lot of people hold. And it's talked about a lot, but actually needing to build the infrastructure to make it happen is much more complicated because there are assumptions made on both sides. A small business owner might think they're too big. I can't handle it. You know, I don't want it. deal with the man whatever it might whatever that narrative might be and similarly the big business might be turning around they'll never meet my scale they're too risky i can't and so a lot of times i quip that our website should read managing expectations since because even though everyone's technically speaking the same language we're really trying to um assuage the fears on both side and really create platforms of empowerment where both parties feel like they're going to be in relationship with one another and not just a transaction that like we are we are oven from this community together that is what a local food system should be we care about each other And we are also putting our money where our mouth is. And so that is a really important piece where we try to come from that place of relationship and integrity of that relationship first. And then we see the money move from there. I love that. It's one of the things that stood out to me as I learned more about Curate and the work that you do is that you're really, I love the way you explain that it's really the relationships between both, right, the producer and the business. And the producer can be in a small, you know, they can go to a big retailer, a big, you know, person that's selling their product or a small one, whatever they want to do. Don't limit yourself. And I feel like when we think about it from a food safety standpoint, we don't want the producers to limit themselves either. I always tell small businesses, I want to eat what you're selling. I want you to be creative. I want you to think about all these things that I can't do because I have zero skill around that. I want you to create, create, create, do go and do it and go out and sell your product. We want to make sure that we enable that growth. And I feel like the work that you've done and curate is exactly that enabling those relationships to happen, enabling that growth to happen so that Tia can eat tasty food. Oh yeah. We want everyone to. Yeah. And it doesn't stop where so many of these spaces where people are purchasing food and that could be a grocery store or it could be a hospital. Right. Any location. We have lived in a system where most of those spaces historically have been peppered with products that you might even find in a gas station. Right. Like it's just big food dominating our shelves. And there's a swing now in our consumers demanding more of our retail spaces. And it could be higher protein, right? Protein's all the rage right now. It could be just having cleaner labels, cleaner ingredients, right? And that has now seeped into all of these spaces in which people consume food. It's not just relegated to like certain demographics in certain parts of the US. And I think that's a really important, part of this conversation is that we as a mass population have woken up to what we've put in our bodies and how that needs to change. As you can tell, if you are just joining us, this is going to be a really rich conversation today. So if it is your first time joining us here at Real Talk, this is Tia and I'm Jill. And we have this show so that we can have these honest conversations about how people can be, can lead in forward in food. And I know that was a little bit clumsy there, but you know, it's this combination of, you know, often we get stuck in like, where are we right now? But we have to be thinking about where are we going? And that's part of what I love, what you're doing, Kim, is you're setting the stage for what can be, and you have been doing that versus just where we are. And my own personal connection, I mean, just lately, somebody had kind of almost staged exactly what you just talked about with like different institutions where there was a small business coming in to this institution who announced that they're going to be sourcing locally. And someone in our food safety circle was like, ooh, cool, but oh, we're nervous. And I was like, you don't need to be nervous. There are people like Kim at Curate who are helping make this happen. So be rest assured. there are people out there doing this work. That is so kind. Yeah, and what I think is often the challenge is that any larger institutional setting is used to purchasing as a part of our global supply chain. products pass through many hands, many touch points where temperature is changing between truck to distribution warehouse to truck to distribution warehouse. And so we're used to having the need understandably of many, many different touch points of our food safety and quality assurance plans because of the way our global supply chain is managed and handled. And so when we turn around to just thinking about first mile delivery, I produced it direct to delivery. Like as if you were ordering from a restaurant, right? You are just getting that fill in the blank delivery service they made at the restaurant, it's to your house. People don't know what to do when it's that short. Right, yeah. Yeah, of a cycle. And so when I speak to people who are in our more globalized supply chain conversations, they're almost always doing tracking and traceability from that first mile drop forward. So I hypothetically go with me with this example. I caught a fish from the sea and then I brought the fish to the dock. first part of traceability begins. But what if, I don't know, what if the sale was happening right then and there? Like it went from C to I'm now in the shack being sold direct to consumer. Anyways, I'm curious both of y'all's thoughts, but I have seen that part of the puzzle being really interesting to explore and talk more about why and where people's fear emerges from, because it's actually a shorter amount of time from production to sale. So most of the time I'm leaning more towards what are the practices around the production of the product or the growing of the product because the distribution side is a little bit more straightforward. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like it's just because of our history in the sense of really the focus. When I think about where the focus has been with food safety, it's been in distribution or large manufacturing. We kind of miss the, like you said, the short distance of, oh, I'm going to make it and then I'm going to sell it right there. And I think historically, and I'm kind of curious, even from people who are listening, what their perspectives would be. But I think historically it's thought, okay, that time is so short, so the risk is less. But what we're finding is because we're really trending towards more people really producing in this way where it is short, or maybe we don't have the same type of we don't have the same type of like protection within the product because we want clean label, because we want all of these different things in our product. We don't have the same type of protections in the product anymore. And so now it becomes more relevant to have food safety there from the sea right to the dock, to wherever you're selling it, to really think about how, how do we incorporate food safety in this way? But that does not. And I feel like small businesses think about this a lot, or this is, maybe one of their fears, how do I incorporate food safety but don't slow down my process? Or don't add all these extra costs that really small businesses don't have. And I feel like one of the reasons why we clicked so closely with what you're doing at Curate is because the way that you think about a small business, you're thinking about, okay, what are you trying to do? Where are you trying to sell? What are you trying to produce? What does success look like for you? And sometimes businesses are surprised when they come to us and they're like, we need food safety help. And we're like, okay, let's talk about your business first. because that that's really where you can help look at your risk. Where is your product moving? Where do you want to sell? Right. Like if you want to continue selling at, you know, the local food market and that's where you want to be, food safety looks different than I want to sell, you know, my product in China or, you know, in different parts of the world. Food safety is going to look different. And what you know, what I've seen sometimes with consultants is that they have like this almost like template that they're kind of working off of and they kind of send it to the business and the business have no idea what it means or how to execute it, or it might not even be clear for their business. We'd like to dig in and say, okay, what's going on and let's build a program that fits for you today and helps you grow into where you want to be tomorrow. And I feel like how you set up your business, you you help them dig into those pieces so that they can understand their distribution. They can understand what do they need to do to protect their product along the way. Definitely. And to your point, are you, doing direct to consumer sales and you need to think about shipping that product like in the mail, or are you wholesaling and delivering it in a vehicle? Are you bringing it yourself and selling it at a farmer's market? And so all of those different ways in which that product is both packaged and delivered matters. And so you might have started your company thinking, I'm going to package everything in glass jars or bottles because that's sustainable and that's what I want. And then you realize, oh, I'm going to do direct to consumer. Shipping that glass is going to be very expensive. Yes. And now you've found a new package that's not glass, but now you have to think about a new food safety protocol because now it's put into a different vessel than glass, which was your previously maybe wash, sanitize procedure for glass is now different. So yeah, I think as people evolve and change over time, And that business need or growth changes, not looking at that full picture is a big detriment. So I'm so glad that you all asked those questions too. Well, you know, and I'm curious because, you know, as founders kind of navigate through that, if they don't have support, I imagine that can be scary, but I'm curious from your perspective, just because you've worked with so many small businesses and founders. when they first start thinking or talking about food safety, what is it that you sense from them about how they feel about it? Yeah, I think most people are really afraid of asking any question specifically of their respective department of health in whatever state or county they're working in, because asking the question immediately, they feel shines a light on them and their business operation. And so if they ask the wrong question, they feel like they've got a target on their back now. And so that is a lot of times where I see people not even approaching the acquisition of knowledge because they don't want, let's say they ask the question, they put in the right documentation. Now they feel that person knows that they didn't know that thing. Yeah. And so having third party spaces like you all to to ask and answer some of those fears without feeling like someone's watching me in the beginning, I think is really very beneficial for most small business owners. The next thing I see is now let's say somebody did ask those questions and the the jurisdictions that are providing that health department clearance are answering in a way that follows their regulations or policies to the T. And that entrepreneur doesn't know how to interpret what's being said to them. And so I see a lot of talking past one another. And then it gets even more complicated because the like i was saying before the managing expectations neither is speaking in the way the other person is understanding right yeah yeah and so then then i see many entrepreneurs sort of throw up their hands like i don't even know what this is like i'm not you know i'm gonna keep doing what i'm doing right yeah right yeah it feels like a roadblock Oh, definitely. Versus like, you know, what we like to say is that food safety really enables growth. If they run into this roadblock of I can't understand you or I feel like there's going to be a spotlight on me, so I'm not even going to reach out. Yeah, that that might cause some issues down down the road. Exactly. And it might not be any fault of any department of health. They may also say, I'm here for you. Please ask the question. I've heard that very straightforwardly, but it's still a perception that people hold. Even if that person is reaching out with open arms to say, like, no, really ask. I want to support you, which is back to relationships. Right. And if people don't feel like they are in relationship and can trust you, it's very hard. Yeah, that's a tough spot to be, whether you're a small business or even a big company. When like what is that spot? What is that line when a regulator is there to be able to help provide guidance and be kind of your champion versus when do they when do they pause and go, oh, actually, this is a problem that I knew that I now like have an obligation to take action? And without knowing that, it is hard because you do want to get the support, but you also don't want to trigger that. Right. And those feelings are valid. You know, just being in food safety, you know, even I am cautious about when to reach out, when do we need to reach out, you know, when do we need to have some conversations internally. You know, when do we use our network, right? You know, that's one great thing about having someone like us is because we have a network of people that we can ask questions to that's not as official as writing into the FDA or the USDA or the Department of Health. So it's one of those things that kind of take off that pressure. But then even, you know, we talk about this all the time, just from a leadership development standpoint, and what our regulators need to know is that if we're not speaking a language that really connects with the people who's making food, we're not really helping, right? Like we're not helping, we're not helping to make food safer. We're not, you know, we're not, we definitely see small businesses as this vulnerable area, but we're not helping if we're not actually speaking a language that someone can pick up and actually do something with. And, you know, I would say I've been right into that situation, helping small businesses where I reach out and I'm like, they're not really giving me the exact thing that I'm looking for. Like, I know that you're quoting regulation, but I'm asking about this area. And so it happens, it exists. And when people in regulatory says, yeah, we, you know, we need to get better about that. So those, you know, if you're listening, you're a small business and you're like, yes, yes. Like we hear you, that's, that's, one hundred percent there and have someone in your corner that can ask those questions either for you or help dig for you or use a network, right? To dig. Yeah. So kind of along those lines, you know, we talked a little bit about, it can be scary reaching out for that, that support when you don't know what it is, but From what you've seen, some of those organizations, whether it's government or maybe even different economic development organizations or even a lot of academic institutions offer support to help small businesses grow. Where do you think, with all the support out there, but yet there's still gaps, where do you think those groups maybe aren't quite on track? Or I don't want to say get it wrong, but maybe not on track to help small businesses the way that they might need help. Yeah. Oh, I'm going to say something very audacious. So here we go. And lots of these spaces, we have like expert generalist curriculum when it comes to helping small business. Like what's a P&L? What is your marketing plan? So And that is because a lot of these entities are funded by the numbers of businesses that they support. And so they need to have this net of allowing many people to walk in the doors to provide that support. But food gets really specific very quickly once you have that business plan in action. And I have not seen as many resources diverted to food specific technical assistance. And that's where we really try to champion this with curate courses to say, this is a technical assistance industry specific program so that when people are past the stage of like, so I want to start a pickle business, you know, they're actively selling their pickles now. Right. And now they're like, where am I going from here? That's where Curate Courses comes in because now we have to ask those questions around labeling and what sales channels are you trying to go into and what are your standard operating procedures to train someone else to make the pickles so you can go sell. We're now at this inflection where other people are being brought into the business outside of just you, the founder. And that's where I think there's such an opportunity for more of our resources to go towards technical expertise that you all bring because that is the moment when someone's beyond just that idea and now they're in business. People have bought their product better more than just their friends and family. Like strangers are now buying the product. And we've had that experience all together where I had a particular partner that was really committed to making sure that both the graduates of curate courses and ultimately the supply chain that we were building had that food safety compliance and understanding. And you all so wonderfully were a part of that program, providing that technical assistance to the founders we worked with. And I think that was a very incredible and unique experience because that particular partner had that vision and that foresight that that is what needed to happen to really help those individuals grow. I welcome any and all government agency, economic development department to take up that torch because it really does unlock a new part of growth for that individual when they have someone in their corner to ask those questions to. We say that all the time. Food is so unique. Like we know that, and I imagine other industries are too, right? Where when you get down to the nitty gritty of things, like you really do need a resource that understands food, how it works. I mean, even just the example of bringing a fish from the sea to the dock to selling it, right? Like being able to understand the pieces of that, And what is needed to protect that product, not just from a food safety and quality perspective, but from like an integrity perspective of I want my product to look like this, feel like this, be like this when my consumer, you know, interacts with it. That's very different than how we manufacture cars or how we, you know, make tools or how, like, it's so different and we meet different skills and you're right. That's one thing that I appreciate about what you do is that it is specialized and it's focused on what does this food business mean? And not just a food business, but a local producer that's trying to get into different spaces and impact their local environment. I mean, That is something that I feel like that the consumers, the industry, everyone is screaming they want more of like what you're saying. But you have been brave enough to kind of step into that space. And, you know, just knowing you over the last five years, four or five years, I know that it's it is not easy. It is not easy to do. And there's challenges around that. Yeah. And what I hear most often from our graduating cohorts of curate courses is that we host this in geographically specific areas. So it might be a state, but it could be as air quotes small as a county, right? So any permutation of that, but we explicitly at this point in time don't have something that's national because what happens is those cohorts are resource sharing amongst themselves. and what i hear really often is that i now feel less alone because i have now been a part of this community of local producers in my geographic area and so that could be as um you know small as i need a food photographer recommendation like who do you know right and someone who is in baltimore might not have the same reference for someone who's in norfolk virginia And so knowing that there's a community that surrounds you to be that resource sharing partner is really, really valuable. And something we're also exploring is now that we have these hubs of activity up and down the East Coast from Maryland, D.C., Virginia, we're also in the Heartland. Arkansas, Texas, Missouri. What does it look like now to grow businesses regionally, but also cross regionally? So if somebody is making kombucha in Baltimore and there's someone making kombucha in Arkansas and their growth strategies are both, I want to grow within hypothetically, two hundred fifty miles of myself. They're not in competition with one another. But what lessons might they share with one another? because they're in the same product category. So that's where I see the evolution of curate courses is still remaining geographically specific for the cohort, for the education themselves, because it's about learning and growing together in community. And I think the next wave is from this continuing education standpoint, now mapping people cross regionally based on product category, bakers, beverages, etc. I love that. I think it opens up to what is possible, right? Because you're able to share those resources, those fears, but also the growth, right? Around, oh, this is what's working for me. This did not work for me. And this is why. Maybe try these type of things, like just that learning, that shared learning. Yeah. And a lot of folks will... immediately when they're at that farmer's market stage and be thinking about that next step of where they want to grow into not everyone but i have a good portion of people that are that will immediately default to i have to find a contract manufacturer ah interesting almost like this needs to be outsourced and even that conversation is okay well If that is true, you will have to do runs with that, with that command. And now you're storing inventory, which is on your books that you may or may not have sold yet, but now you're managing the sell through of that inventory that you have in storage. is that being stored cold? Is it being stored ambient? Like, have you thought through where those pallets of that product is being stored and who's then pick and packing that to go out to different people who have ordered, right? There's so many, but the first thought is just like, someone else is gonna do this. Yeah. Wow. But it's a different structure of operations then. Whereas if you're making it yourself, you might be able to sort of make on demand. Right. You might be able to flex and like make that seasonal offering quicker because you're making it yourself. yes and we don't they don't think about these things at times and that's what we're really trying to illuminate and that also of course affects your food safety oh yeah because there's nothing that's more heartbreaking for us than when somebody comes and they're like gosh we really wanted to get into even if it's a local retailer but they have enough food safety expectations that that's a barrier And they're like, gosh, I can't even get into my local retailer because of this. And I love that there are many more options today than there were ten years ago or even twenty years ago with how some of our retailers look at this today. But, you know, recognizing that as you grow, it likely means you're growing into additional regulations and expectations around food safety. And really there is that point where that food safety gap can cause you to miss those opportunities. So I think that's always really interesting. And I think about, you know, in those moments, is that something that you see entrepreneurs or small business owners that they connect with that? Yeah, I recognize there's a gap and how do they talk about it? Yeah, well, of course, there are, you know, I'm preaching to the choir here, but there's different tiers of food safety concern depending on the risk of that food product in general. And so if it is a lower risk food item, shelf stable, snack, chocolate bar, trail mix, well, devoid of allergens. A chip, you know, that is... I'm hesitant to even say easier, but that is a, that is easier to scale and talk through because from the buying side, there's less risk a part of that, you know, production and consumption of that good. Whereas the folks who are on the riskier side, anything that's a prepared food item, non high pressure, pasteurized fresh juices. Oh, You have to know from the beginning the waters you're swimming in here. Because if you're in that space, understandably, if you are trying to now sell to someone else, they do not want anyone to be sick, of course. And that's what we have to... That is what we continuously reframe it as, is where we have to identify where are the points that risk may enter into the consumption of this food product and nobody wants to get ill here. And that, particularly with our prepared foods businesses who have already cooked the items and now maybe they're cooked, they're brought down to cold holding, they're packaged cold, they're delivered cold, they're then put in a cold case to be sold and then reheated. That's where I see the most growth is those businesses being able to go through and understand the importance of potentially exploring fill in the blank third party auditing company or some sort of external accreditation because I do feel they are doing the necessary and required steps as it pertains to the health department regulations of their HACCP plans and temp logs and SOPs. But that category is often perceived as one of the more risky, at least in my experience from the buyer perspective. And so if they did go that extra step of getting that third party audit, it might assuage even more of those fears. So I would just implore if anybody is on that riskier spectrum of for sure a raw good, but in a prep food space and you're trying to explore additional growth channels, I would encourage you to just, yeah, work with the team here and or seek out some additional accreditation so that people know that you've got it, that you got under control. Kim, that makes me think about, you know, I've worked in small businesses and again, great ideas, love them, want to eat all the food. But sometimes this food safety strategy, what you're talking about, it makes me think about like, what is your food safety strategy plan? You know, how are you validating? How are you bringing on third party audits to make sure that you are not only validating the work that you're doing, but your buyer feels comfortable that you're doing the work that you're doing. that's all strategy right you might feel well we're doing it right but if no one's buying your product because they're not sure or they you don't have that stamp of approval then it's not really helping your business grow so i'm kind of curious from your perspective you know how are small businesses sort of developing the strategy around food safety are they doing it are they slow to do it do you find that um over time after doing this uh you know for twelve years is it has it gotten better Where do you kind of see this food safety strategy fitting in? Most of the entrepreneurs I speak with are so overwhelmed and they're just trying to get by day to day and make enough money so that they don't go under. Right. And where I've seen individuals succeed in food safety strategy is finally having somebody on the team who is more operationally or administratively focused. And then that person takes on the food safety strategy. But if it is still a team that doesn't have a dedicated separate ops person, it is not even on the priority poll. I mean, it's a priority and that again, nobody's trying to create any food items that make anybody ill or, but it's just, I'm gonna do what I said I would do to just get by. And so that shift in the business structure of having someone who can actually focus on that, is what I have seen the biggest catalyst for someone to really take this seriously. But until there's not that person and it's falling on the one owner operator's shoulders, it's really hard for them to put time into thinking about really anything outside of the day-to-day. It's not even food safety specific. To go into a different realm for a moment, I have that persona of an individual who's like, barcodes? Ah, you know, and I'm like, shoot, like, but you need a barcode in order to like, you know, scan the product at checkout. And they're like, but that's gonna cost so much. And I'm like, Are you sure? Like, this is the site, I'm not sure if it, you know, and so there's all these, again, preconceived notions of what something is or will be. Yes. But if you're just, you're the only one and you're moving quickly, it's just hard to pause and really think it through. Yeah. We tell small businesses that, you know, that doesn't necessarily need to be a full-time person right now, right? Like you just need someone separate to kind of think about your food safety and your food safety strategy or, you know, even different parts of the organization on like, how are you even going to sell this at your, you know, at the point of sale? You know, you need people sort of thinking about these parts of your business. And when you're at a certain size, that might be a consultant helping you out and providing that strategy for you. As you grow, it is going to be time to hire someone. And it's funny, like we do, obviously we consult, but there comes a time that we tell people it's time for you to hire someone internally. it's time for you to actually bring someone on board because the way you're growing, you need more focus there that a consultant is just not gonna be able to give you unless really you hire them full time. So, I mean, I love that. I love the advice that you give around that because it is true and food safety can be overwhelming. I had a friend call me two weeks ago, her business is growing, growing, growing, and she's like, OK, we're going to start packaging it differently. And I am just overwhelmed by the food safety. And I'm like, yeah, it is a lot. Food safety is a lot. There's a lot of programs. There's a lot of regulations. Like there's a reason why food safety is a function in an organization and why there are, you know, sometimes hundreds of people that work in food safety or support food safety in organizations. It's a real thing. But as small businesses, if you have a partner that's actually thinking strategically, they can help break that down and say, you know, what do you need right now? What do you need right now? What do you need to focus on right now? Because like you said, as a founder, you're everywhere, right? You're everywhere. You're trying to do all the things. What do you need to focus on right now? And what do you need to set up so that when that time comes in a year, you're ready for it and you're not saying, oh, no, we haven't done this. So we can't sell to that buyer. Kim, I mean, you've even experienced this as you've been working in this space and helping with distribution and supply chain. Haven't you? I mean, this is part of what you've navigated even just personally through that. Yeah. Yeah. Like what is, what is that even taught you that you're like, yep, this is, you know, something that shifted how you even advise the companies that you work with now, just because you got to experience it yourself. Yeah. I think the biggest realization that we needed to codify at Curate was of course, not just making sure that all the vendors that are in our network have certificates of insurance, have health department clearances, our basic doing business documentation, but also understanding that if and when a situation arises where either it's from the vendor needing to institute a recall or the buyer recognizing that Maybe that kombucha exploded when someone opened it because the alcohol contact got you. Whatever it might be. Or yeah, the package came dented and it was open and needs to be recalled. And so in our business, we're a service provider for the buyer to make sure that we're buying vetted products from these vendors who have given us that compliance documentation. And if that issue is identified upon receipt of that good, we need to be able to institute an immediate plan to discard, remove, recall that product from the shelf if any one of those food safety concerns is identified. And so we had the pleasure of working with you both on really formulating like, what is that? Erica Kaurudar, recall plan as the entity that is providing the service to ensure that that product is removed from the operation and then making sure that those two individuals could talk with one another, if any sort of further concerns arise but. Again, as that management of expectations hat is being worn, being that message steward of how that needed to almost project management happen to ensure food safety and quality is there. I really appreciated that like fine tooth comb of like, who are the parties involved? Who needs to be informed? What needs to be communicated in what timely fashion? I think many small business owners, again, we're going through, am I producing this product that is up to food safety and quality standards? Is it being distributed in that way? But don't always then think that next part of, well, what happens if I have to take it back? Right. Yes. And so that was my long way of saying that's what's really been illuminated for me in this journey is that whole cycle of food safety compliance. And that portion is really important for us to communicate with our buyers that like we've got your back and we have this plan. Yes. Yes. Yes. It's really interesting to think about what happens if something goes wrong. Many founders are not thinking about that. They don't want to. Don't tell me. I don't want to jinx it into existence. Blinders, blinders. A lot of times, like you said, there's so much effort in the day-to-day of doing it right that that next step of like, what if it goes wrong? Sometimes that's just another thing on top of everything as well. And that's just not small businesses, but it's all businesses, all businesses of like, well, what happens if you need to find it? Yeah. Can you, can you find this product? Do you know where it went? Yeah. So Kim, like, we know small businesses are going to be listening to this and there's been so many gems throughout this time that we've talked, you know, for small businesses that's listening right now, who knows that food safety is on the list, but they keep pushing it down, keep pushing it out. Right. What's the first honest step that you see that is not overwhelming for them? Like where should they start so they can get the ball rolling? I mean, just to reiterate what I think we've all identified on this conversation already is that if you're at a stage in your business where you're really trying to grow into new sales channels, whatever that sales channel is, identifying operationally what you're going to need to get you there and knowing that a part of that operational strategy has to be your food safety plan. It's not this or that. That is a part of growth, period. Yes. I wanted to do snaps for that because it's not a standalone. I don't know how many times I've said that to a business. Food safety is not a standalone. We should be incorporated and integrated in every part of your business. Food safety is an and, I love that. It's not a this or that, it's an and. And how are you bringing food safety along with you? How are you thinking about that when you're developing your product, when you're shipping your product, when you're talking to buyers? Because they are, right? Buyers are thinking about it. Yep. And I'll just, again, make a correlation to a different part of one's business is that I will hear people say, oh, my marketing plan is social media. And I'm like, that is a part of your marketing plan, but that cannot be your entire marketing plan. And so I've, yeah, I often find that we're equating this larger function of the business operations marketing with one specific function. tactic or one specific strategic output and not knowing like there's actually a Multitudes of things that need to exist within growth of operations or within your go-to-market marketing plan It might be social media, but once somebody follows you on social media, what are you doing with them? like that follower how would you track that follower into seeing if they actually purchased from you? And so when we are in courses, I push back a lot when people are saying, oh, my marketing plan, my outcome is that I'm going to get ten followers from this piece of content. I'm like, who cares? To what end? Why? And that I also feel to correlate back to your operational growth. okay so you got that contract manufacturer okay you got that new buyer but now what did you write the SOP have you thought through this you know again shipping and handling of that product what happens if it gets shipped to a location and it's a product that needs to be refrigerated and no one in the mail room told anyone that it was there and now it's sat out of temp what's your plan because that's real that happens yes yeah yes I love the way you said like you Joe like you know how many times do people call us and they're like ah Target says they want to put us on shelves and we need to do all of this stuff right like I like the way you said okay you get that buyer you get in your dream location then what When you have things in place that actually get you on the shelf to help you stay on the shelf. When I worked for a company, a meal kit company, I'm like, we're not in the business of selling one box to one customer. We're in the business of selling over and over and over and over. That's how you sustain a business. You're not in business to get on a shelf and sit there. You want someone to buy and you want them to keep buying, buying, buying. How are you doing that? How are you ensuring they're coming back to you? And it's not just, oh, man, I'm in my dream retailer. Cool. Now what? Totally. So, Kim, I'm curious, you know, before as we're wrapping up, you know, I think there's been some great obviously there's some really good gems in here of information. But what's one thing you would want a small food founder to walk away with after this conversation, like believing that they might not believe right now? Oh, that is a great question. I really hope and I'm, I'm, you know, championing what you both espouse so beautifully is that food safety shouldn't be a place of fear, that it should come from a place of I I too want to ensure my product's integrity that no one will be harmed in the consumption of this product, right? It's coming from a place not of wrist slapping, like you're doing something wrong, but rather we are doing this to ensure that you are putting your best foot forward in the world, that this is... to the integrity and relational standard that you would want this to exist in the world, as opposed to seeing it as you're doing something wrong and bad and be scared. I love that. I love that. I think with you all, one of the first times that we have the tagline of food safety is fun. Food safety is fun. It enables growth. It's all positive things, especially when You do the things that you've talked about today, having that plan, thinking it through, bring it along with you. That's when things get fun and it enables that growth versus being scary and oops, now it's stopping my business. Exactly. Yeah, definitely. It feels like the founders who kind of help make that mindset shift of like, this helps me be confident in what I'm doing so I can get to the next step, that that would help them get into spaces that, perhaps their competitors can't get into and opening that shelf space or those markets for them. Yeah. Yeah. There's a food safety guru, Larry Keener, if you're out there listening. Hello, Larry. And he always says food safety actually is a competitive advantage because if you have your food safety together, you know, even you've talked about many times during this conversation that buyers are asking for this information. If I have it and my competitor does not have it, which one is the buyer going to go with? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. That's a competitive advantage. That's getting there first. That's being in spaces and more spaces that your competitor might not actually be in. Yes. You know, and you know, I think if, if you are a small food founder, right, that's navigating this right now, you know, we would love to hear from you. So. We answer all our emails, but hit reply or drop a note in the show and tell us what you're dealing with or what's the food safety question that you haven't been able to get a straight answer on or that you might even be hesitant to ask. That's what we're here to help with. Absolutely. We answer those questions all the time. We're happy to answer those questions. No fear. And we've also built a food safety starter kit for small businesses. And this is a guide through maturity, right? As you grow, different regulatory levels as you grow. Kim, you even said during the conversation, like the more you sell, the more areas you're in, right? That opens the door to more regulatory. And this starter checklist that we have helps you start to think about where's my first step? right how do i start building in that strategy so we'll make sure that we have a link in all the places that you can watch this and listen to so you can get to it it's definitely out on our website so you can also grab yeah kim it has been such a pleasure having you on thank you for sharing your insights your time and even more if Importantly, like creating this community for founders to really be able to, you know, do what they love and support things that people love. Oh, thank you both so much. This has been so lovely to be in conversation with you. Yes. And we are celebrating because I forgot to say that May is actually Small Business Month. Yes, it is. Oh, yes. Amazing. We celebrate the work that you do because you are all about small businesses and local ecosystems and the relationships you are building. I mean, I have never heard of anything like this before. Like it is very unique. It is, it's something that we need, we need out there and you are one brave woman for doing it. You are, you are, you're brave for it. And we appreciate you. We appreciate the work that you're doing and know we support you and your organization and i i just love what you're doing because i feel like it is it's needed and like you said people talk about it all the time but no one's doing anything about it and curators and the the you know the courses you have the cohorts you do like i mean if you're a small business listening and you do not know about kim like you need you need you because this is really innovative and um you are blazing a trail yeah thank you so much thank you well that's today's real talk thanks for joining us and we hope we'll see you next time thanks everyone bye
