Hello, everyone. Welcome to Real Talk with Tia and Jill and our very special guest, Lawrence. Welcome. Thank you for having me. You too. It's a pleasure. Oh, we're glad to have you here to kick off them. Well, you're kicking off our Monday week. I know it's already the end of day Monday for you. So yeah, it's getting there. It's just gone four o'clock in the afternoon. So you are almost done with your Monday. which I'm sure when we talk about that, people are going like, where are you, Lawrence? So curious where you're located. And of course, if you are joining us, drop in the chat. Like we love to know where people are all joining us from. Lawrence, where are you? I am in a village called Whedon, which is between Birmingham and Milton Keynes for anyone that knows it. It's right slap bang in the middle of England. Nice. I like to hear it. Village. Village brings up good pictures in your head for you? In my head, yes. Ah, the stories we create, right? Wow. A hundred jars down the road that way from me is the pub and then there's the little bridge over the stream and so on. It's all like I see in the movies. That's it, exactly. Yeah. Awesome. And you all know I'm in Baltimore. You know, just doesn't sound as quaint. It does not sound as quaint. But today I'm in Madison. So I'm in Wisconsin today. I don't think Madison is very quaint. Every time I speak to you, you're somewhere different. I don't know what to say. Okay. World traveler. We're here, we're there. We're just all around. Awesome. There we go. There we go. Well, we love Mondays because this is our time to really talk about things that's happening in the industry, what people are most interested in around leadership. And Lawrence, we're excited about today's topic around leadership bias, because this is like a kickoff to our leadership summit that's coming up next week. Next week, April eighth, which we're super excited about. So we're not going to give all the secrets away today, but this is just such a great topic that we want to make sure that we bring it to this audience and just have a very different conversation with this one. That's good. Yeah. I think it really gives our audience a chance to kind of get to know you, Lawrence, and even kind of a little bit how you think in this area before they get to experience it live at the summit. And I think about those people who are always like, gosh, I keep having this happen. Or when I am navigating this meeting, this relationship, this something, and this certain dynamic always shows up. Like that I think is worth leaning into and part of what you help people uncover. So teaser for everybody. That's part of what Lawrence does. Yeah. Can I say something to what you just said then? Mm-hmm. You said you're keen to know a bit about me and how I think about this subject. The way I cover this subject is all about getting people to really think about themselves and what they are thinking, if that makes sense. Because we'll start assuming that we know each other or ourselves. But when you explore this subject, you really find out much more about yourself. If you can understand yourself more, you're in a better position to put yourself in the shoes of others. to enhance communication internally and externally as a leader and um and so on so yeah it's about i get people to know about them and even when i do talk about me all of you as your human beings will make an assumptions about me so any questions in that comments bar or anything you want to know uh anything you think you're assuming about me or i'll pick up on the assumptions that you may be doing unconsciously and make you more conscious of them I love that because as leaders, we think that we should be looking at other people all the time. It's one of the things that leaders do. I need to help fix them. I need to help strengthen them. I need to do that. We hear this all the time. I need to get my team development done. And a lot of times, especially if we go into a team that's quite chaotic, all the team members are saying, my leader, my leader, I need this type of support for my leader. And so the leader hasn't actually taken a moment to think about themselves and how they show up, how they impact the team. And so I'm excited about this conversation today. So hopefully people can think about, kind of shift that mindset around. If my team is feeling a certain way, how do I contribute to that? How do I take a look at myself first? Yeah. Well, the thing is, we will sometimes make assumptions about how others are feeling. Mm-hmm. But what you are thinking as a leader unconsciously will affect what you are doing. That affects how others feel. You know, leadership bias, you don't see the unconscious stuff affects how your team feels. And this is all about mindset for me. Whoever you are, especially leaders, you've got to be in the right frame of mind. You've got to be in the right frame of mind. to have the right conversation with the right people about the right thing. And when you said about chaotic, chaotic teams, often I find, you know, that sometimes what we think is a chaotic team might not actually be the chaotic team, but that's where our focus is going. That's where we're looking. You've got to really been the right for a month to really see what you really need to be influencing and what you really need to be as a leader. and leaders are human beings we will always go for the easy option and we'll find out why that is as we go through and especially in the summit next week on the eighth and so yeah so um that's the stuff behind all this that i really get interested in i'm always i get quite passionate about this stuff because i always learn something new whenever i speak to people about bias That's awesome. Well, you know, and a big shout out. So Amy Parks from Dole, she was the one who like made the introduction for us because she heard you speak and was like, Lawrence is fantastic. And then she dropped this other little piece. She also dropped this other little piece of information. She's like, and he started off in like law enforcement. And I'm like, what? How did he find his way into this like foods? You know, how did he end up here talking to a food company? of course we want to know more about that because just from our conversation like like we know you started your career as a police officer in the uk for a number of years and that's not where most people in this space and specialists especially begin their careers so how did that like how did that play into kind of where you are today and Like, how is it framed, like what you're doing today? Okay. So, twenty-one years ago, I left the police service in the UK. I was in the police for twelve years. But L&D, I've been involved in for thirty-one years because I did, just after joining the police service, get involved in learning and development. Specifically, initially, I used to train to qualify to come off the streets from my general duties to train police officers and police staff in conflict avoidance, physical intervention, personal safety. I now specialise in conflict avoidance and equity, diversity, inclusion and belonging. They sound like two big different subjects, but for me, diversity is about accepting and respecting differences in people. If you don't, can't, or won't accept or respect differences in people, that naturally leads towards conflicts. And our bias reacts to things that are different to our usual norms. So that's the stem of potential conflicts. If you're not conscious of your biases, it affects behaviours, behaviours be behaviours, and you can escalate into conflicts. and it's when i was doing my work i only thought about this after leaving the police really how i came into this subject as my main thing but uh dealing with uh physical intervention conflict training you are managing as a police officer you have to manage yours and others fight flight or freeze response if that makes sense because you have to use reasonable force as an officer every now and then to ensure you're making arrests and doing what you need to do. And our bias is influenced by our natural survival instincts, the fight, flight, freeze response. So that's why I will say that our biases are natural things. They're there to protect us. there is nothing wrong with what you think at all that it's there to keep you safe but when it comes to exploring this in day-to-day leadership roles in different sectors um bias and our protection mechanism is not just about the worst case scenario someone in front of you has really threatened you your well-being we are always unconsciously on the alert to things that are different to our usual that will trigger the emotional brain that will trigger your biases, that affects what you say, what you do and how you behave. So I get everyone to really recognise how what they're thinking unconsciously, they're now being conscious of it, accepting it, but then you can start really managing proactively, consciously what you say, what you do and how you behave. And I thought back on this, because you mentioned about the police side before, and it's on reflection, it made me reflect. And in the police, I definitely... was less conscious then, but I definitely saw how emotions would affect how people behaved in the police. I recognized how a lot of that would link back to people's background, upbringing, the culture, not just relationships or experiences in different environments. So a lot of this is deep rooted stuff. And it's amazing how people in the police will be getting in trouble with the police because for them, what they were doing was a usual behavior. For the police, it's an unlawful behavior, but for them it's a usual behavior. So a big thing I always mention is that what's usual to you as a leader is not always usual to others. And unless you accept what you're thinking and really now start to get interested in others to find out their facts, how they are feeling, um, You just won't get anywhere with regards to communication or relationships or looking at team dynamics. Not saying anyone's doing any wrong, but if you understand this stuff, you can really enhance what you're doing and why you're doing it. Because some people will do things that just does not make sense for anybody, but for them, it's real for them. And that's what you're battling against with the police. People are now doing things illegally. uh so you have to enforce that but a lot of that stems back from peer pressure in younger years or what they were seeing naturally day to day with regards to their upbringing and culture and the biases of others or the behaves of others was affecting them so you call that peer pressure or also known as conformity bias you do things you don't want to do to fit in and as a leader you don't want anyone technically to just do things to fit in Because what they're fitting into might not be the right thing. So it really gets you as a leader to really look at, are we doing the right thing for the right reasons in the right frame of mind with the right people? Yeah. One thing that you said that was really interesting is that You know, we sometimes when people do things like it's youth, it's a normal thing for them, right? It's not unusual for them to do these, to do whatever actions. And they don't know that it's unusual until they talk to other people, right? Like in their environment, in their culture, like you said, And maybe everyone's doing it or no one looks at it funny. But when you write from your point of view, you were coming in as a part of the police force, but recognizing that there's also other groups that this is not this is not a usual thing to do. And it just made me think about company culture and the things that we see where organizations are like, yes, this is the way we produce product. This is the way that we are. And they don't realize that this is contributing to issues, right? In your field work where you were talking about, it's obviously creating issues where police is showing up. You know, in workforce, it might be you continue to see issues with food safety or you're continuing to see issues with people behavior or recalls or, you know, insert the issue. But a leader might think, right, or people in the organization might think, well, we're just doing what we always do, what we know, what we know to do. yeah i've worked in organizations where they've said um we always do it this way and then they've actually said we know it's not right but we've always done it this way and we'll continue to do this because we are creatures of habit and that links to what you're doing in your organization as well you will often be doing things as part of a habit without realizing, because that's usual and normal for us. But I'll pick up on a couple of things that you said with regards to, you mentioned about behaviors, for instance. This is where, for me, leaders really need to build a culture where everyone feels safe and comfortable to let their leaders know what they don't like. Yes. But to do, because if you don't tell anyone what you don't like, people will assume everything's okay. So a lot of this thinks back to, we need to be having awkward conversations. Now the easy option for awkward conversation is to have it downwards, manage it with their staff. to really impact on culture positively and learn about what people think about your culture, you need to encourage more awkward conversations sideways and upwards. For me, leaders need to build that culture where everyone, whoever they are, feels able to tell them about what any issue there may be for them. Then it needs the leader to hear what they are saying, take their point of view and their perception and open up communication to really make sure this issue goes away. I don't know whether you have HR departments, human resources departments that oversee policy procedure. Is that right? Am I assuming that correctly? Typically. You speak to any HR director or HR business partner, HR manager, and they will tell you that often things come to them when they have become complicated. When if we have more conversations early before they get complicated or emotional, it's all sorted. It would have been easier. But I mentioned fight, flight, freeze. Anything awkward, we will go into flight mode because it's not usual. That means we won't talk about it. Sorry to interrupt you. Well, so I was going to ask, so if people have listened to the show before, they know one of my pet peeves is the whole, I have an open door policy. Come talk to me at any time. I'm curious your thoughts on that, because I think a lot of leaders feel like I've said these words. I'm chummy with my team, so they know they can come talk to me at any time. But yet then there's always moments where then they share that they've been blindsided by something or their team has low engagement scores. So what is the common blind spot that leaders have that they think they've created safety when there really isn't safety okay um i like that pet peeve of yours if i get a pet i might call it peeve okay so what a couple of things here you know firstly when you think about it if you've got something awkward to say the manager is or leader is saying their door is always open well the fact that they are in a box in an office with a shut door means it's going to be difficult to not just go and have a conversation with the leader in their territory They've got to go and knock on the door to go into a manager leader's territory. And this is about territorial stuff. It's all about human nature. You have cliques and tribes at work. It all links back to cliques and tribes, safety in numbers and things like that. And if I said to you two, look, you can come and talk to me any time that you need me. You know that, don't you? Well, first of all, how I'm communicating, if I'm saying, you know that, don't you? Even if you don't know that or don't feel that, you might say yes when you actually mean no. And what happens is people will often say yes when they mean no. It's part of conformity bias, peer pressure, because the easy option is to agree to something you don't agree with instead of having a conversation about something you don't agree with. because we start to fear there's gonna be conflict. So for me, it's about everyday conversations. It's about being aware of what you're leading by good example, because you're conscious of your bias. You're not letting it affect what you say and do. You are really paying attention to what people say to you. And if people say something to you that's awkward, you're human as a leader. You might flight away from that. Or you say, yes, I'll listen when you're not listening. So it's about the everyday little subtle things in meetings, in team gatherings, in conversations that we need to really be mindful of and really explore things. If we get a gut feeling, because it's all about your gut feeling, you get a gut feeling something's not quite right. You need to let people know that you feel there's something not right. And you want them to let you know if they feel something's not right as well. It's about being proactive as a leader. So often as a human being and a leader, we are reactive to situations that have got complicated. And then we say they haven't listened. They, you know, things happen all of a sudden and they're complicated. No, things should never happen that way. We should all know roughly what's going on with ourselves and each other and have the conversations early. Yeah, I like the way you put it with the open-door policy where it's like you are saying, come into my territory and then tell me all the things that you don't like. So I have to walk into the lion's den, basically. And that's how people feel, right? That's how people feel. I have to go to the lion's den and, you know, talk about something that I don't like that either that leader is doing or someone else is doing. That's just not a comfortable space. And I think as leaders, we've kind of, it's one of those things that I feel like a catalyst we're trying to help reverse in our industry when we think about leaders or to even use the theme of the summit to really reimagine how we show up as leaders where we're not inviting people into our territory, but we're actually going to theirs. And when we do that, we're actually showing them this is what happens when you're brave, right? Like I'm coming to your territory, I'm coming where you are, I'm having those difficult conversations, I'm asking you questions, we're solving questions in this territory. That's when you start seeing people say, OK, well, maybe this is not a lion's den. Maybe this is like a little burrow for rabbits. And I like that. Right. Instead of a lion's den, a burrow for rabbits. Now, look, this is what you're saying there. What you're saying there resonates with me because, you know, a leader in their office is in their safe place. Yeah. Yeah. and you two if you imagine in your entire working lives you've ever had a leader come to you and say jill i need to have a word with you in my office right yeah did you see my eyebrow just go up like says it all i need to have a word with you in my office now In my experience, those words are often going to be awkward, negative words. So if every time a leader says, I want to speak with you in my office, if it's always a negative, then you'll naturally have the stereotype that goes with that. Every time the leader asks to see me, it's going to be negative. So in actual fact, we actually need to talk to people about good, positive things as well. Firstly, I don't think we do that enough. Congratulate people. I've got some information about surveys at work in the UK that happen. The same thing happens every year. I'll link to this if you want that. But you've got to have the good, positive conversations as well as the difficult ones. And also, instead of people coming to you, for leaders about where are you being seen in the organization. The number of people I say at work that don't get to see their leaders because they are always in their office. That's their safe place. Leaders need to be seen. And the more they are seen, the more they're having conversations that are positive. They're more encouraging people to tell them what they want to know about this awkward. The more that becomes Well, that becomes a different habit. And leaders are human. So if they get to know about or get the feeling there's an issue in that department, what a leader will often do is just stay away from that department. No, you've got to trust your gut instincts and be seen. You don't have to say anything. Just being seen by people sends a message. It sends the message you're interested. You're not just coming to see me when it's something awkward in your office. You know, we start to do things differently. You might never change what you think, but you can do things differently. Yes. You know, as we talk about this, we're kind of going into one of my pet peeves. This is when leadership decides. So this is extremely common. Leadership will decide, oh, we need to be seen more. Or someone on leadership would say, typically the plant leader will say, I want all plant leadership to be seen more. So we're going to go through and do what they call gimbal walks, but it's not actually a gimbal walk. But they will say, we're going to go through and we're going to do these gimbal walks. Every morning at eight a.m., we're going to walk the floor together. And then they go and they walk the floor and they I like the way you talk about a tribe or cliques. They're in their little clique and they are walking and they're talking with each other and they're looking and they're talking with each other and then they're gone. And what I've done before is go behind that group. and talk to people and say, hey, like, oh, I see some people walking through. And they're like, yeah, what is that about? You know, or yeah, they're walking through. Yeah, I don't know why they're here. You know, like, or whatever they kind of give to it. But when you talk about like leaders being in their own cliques or, you know, leaders kind of creating this environment again, where it's really hard to go up to a leader and say, wow, this thing is what's wrong down here. When there's like, Ten leaders looking at you that's responsible for your pay, that's responsible for approving your top model, that's responsible for your rewards. I mean, every single person that's responsible for how you see your performance is here. And then we're supposed to have an open conversation. It won't work. Because the thing is, if you've got a group of leaders on a gimbal walk, which is another thing I've learned today. You've got a group of leaders on a gimbo walk to approach ten or five leaders because they've got safety in numbers, unconsciously those leaders are safe in their numbers. What they're saying is technically don't approach us because we're outnumbering you. So it's actually harder to talk to a group of five leaders walking through than it is to knock on the door to speak to one leader in the room. So it's recognising how what you are doing could affect others and eight a.m every morning it's just routine you know oh they always walk through i don't know why well why don't we tell people why we're walking through and why don't we do it in a way that means you can approach one or two leaders on a gimbo walk who actually stop and ask you, is there anything unusual or awkward you'd like to talk to us about today? Because that's what we want to hear. You may not have it today, but I want to let you know we are here to have these conversations. We welcome them. We want them. It's about... breaking the habit and encouraging people to have those conversations early in a safe, comfortable way, not packs going around, just pushing people away, technically unconsciously pushing people away instead of getting them to engage. You know, that kind of leads into like a lot of leaders in our industry, they are promoted because they have this technical expertise. You know, even as they're going out walking, a lot of times it's this group kind of talking about like, let's see what's happening on the floor to see if we can help people. You know, there's really this, like, I don't know, this culture of like, how do we contribute and that expertise? And of course, people leadership is different. So when we think about I don't think we're the only industry that does this, but we do it, I think quite a bit. Like I know a lot about the process. I'm gonna promote them to be a production manager. I know a lot about food safety quality. I'm gonna promote them to be the next director. How does that even shape or does it shape how some of this bias shows up in our industry? Is it different? does it shape it what are your thoughts related to that um okay well you the key word for me that bias is all about is people so if you're good at tech doesn't mean you're good at people you can have the best tech that gets promoted well first they does that person want to be promoted or are they saying yes to promotion when they actually want to say no to promotion So you've got to make sure people are in the right frame of mind, have the right skills to do the right job. And any job, however tech it may be, has got people behind it somewhere. And I often see that you're getting the wrong person for the wrong reasons, take the wrong job. Yeah. I especially get that in academia when I do work in academia. The best plumber, the best tech does not make the best tech manager or plumbing manager, you know? Yeah. and then when you promote people you need to give them the extra skills to be able to manage the people side of it you know you've got to be able to manage people and this is where if you get all of your people are feeling safe and comfortable then we can get on with the job we often get task orientated process orientated i'm a great believer you've got to really be people focused before we go to task and that means just sometimes stopping slowing down getting the right from mind checking people are safe and comfortable before we do the job. And I don't think we did that often enough. We're driven for process and there's look, human beings like to be liked. Okay. So I think for a start, one of the hardest things for someone that gets promoted into a management role or leadership role is they will often try to be everyone's friend. Well, as a manager, it's a mindset thing. If you try to be everyone's friend, For a start, you might not like all of them. We talk about likes and dislikes in the session. You might not like all of them, but it doesn't mean you can't be a manager for them. If you try to be everyone's friend, it's more difficult to have awkward conversations with friends. So the mindset for anyone that's managing or leading is, I don't work with any friends. I work with colleagues. I need to make sure they're happy, safe, and comfortable before we do process or tech. If you don't, then you're going to have conflicts arise. You'll have people shy away from you. You'll have people not come to you. So you've got to give people that look after other people the skills to do that. For instance, if I do a two-day management course, the first day of the management course is understand and manage yourself. The manager needs to be in the right mind, understanding what they're doing, why they're doing it. And then the second day is accept, respect, and manage others. You have to then accept, respect, and manage others with regards to people so we get the task done. Yeah. That's like snappy worthy. Yeah. We talk about that too. Cause when, you know, that's such an important aspect that I think is often skipped over that To be able to manage or lead others, you have to first be a leader of yourself. It doesn't mean asking for perfection in that. It means how are you actively continuing to grow as a leader so that you can continue to grow, accept, respect others as humans and as leaders as well. Exactly. It starts with you. And behavior breeds behavior. If you have a leader that's short-tempered, rude, curt, miserable... then people around them will be the same. They will behave the same way. And it's an unconscious thing because no one's telling you they don't like it, you know, and do you ever have anybody moan at work? For me, moaning at work is inappropriate behavior. What we need to do is instead of moaning about people that moan at work, we need to, find out why people are moaning and what they're moaning about and sort that out for them might be totally different from what it is for you as a leader you're moaning about, but leaders should not moan. We are proactively sorting things out for us and then others for what they need, not what you need. That's a big thing, you know? Yes. Yes. I love when I'm talking to a crowd or to my team and someone's face change and I'm like, Oh, Your face changed. What is that about? You know, and then it's like, oh, well, this is what I thought during this time. Oh, OK. I didn't think about that. Let's add that. Right. And because one of the things that you're absolutely right, like if you're a leader, that's like, I don't want to hear any moaning. I don't want to hear any grumbling. You know, I want to just hear positive things coming from you. But then that's what you're going to get. Right. You're not going to actually know what's what's going on on your team. And it doesn't necessarily mean that those things aren't going on. It just means you're not hearing about it as a leader. Yeah, exactly. There's a saying that I like. I'll come out with a few sayings, whether you like them or not is another thing. But they're saying that the person at the top, the leader or leaders, they will always get to hear the good news. because people will filter the bad news on its way up to the top. So the leaders assume everything's okay. In actual fact, it's how quickly you get to hear the bad news. That's what counts. You need the culture where bad news comes to you before it gets complicated. And then you've got to be proactive in doing something about it, not just for you, For everyone that's experiencing that. Otherwise, you make everything about you. And in a thing called the trust equation that I look at, that's self-interest. You end up unconsciously putting yourself and your needs first. That will switch people off. People won't trust you. And that's part of the trust equation. when you say when you say that you know i just want to give like a little shout to middle managers because you know middle managers especially in food they serve in this very interesting spot where they're we like to call it the middle manager squeeze where leadership is trying to push down their strategy and this is how things should be right and then you know there are teams and saying well we don't we don't want to do that um but they have to be the ones that influence to um to drive but they also have to you know share and that type of thing when we when we actually develop our middle managers and we have really strong leaders at that middle level they are able to um take the strategy change it up so that it fits for their team and to inspire them to move forward. But they're also great at figuring out what is the team actually saying? What do they mean? What do they like? What do they not like? And they're also really great at sending that information back up. I'm like, I know you're hearing all the great things, but this is what I'm hearing from my team. This is what they like. And if your middle manager do not have the skills to be able to do that, You'll either think everything is terrible as a leader because that's the only thing you're getting. Or most of the cases, Lawrence, you know exactly what you're saying. They think everything's fine. So when we go into organizations, you know, you know, this company has really poor engagement scores and it's a shock. you know they fill an audit and it's a complete shock and um they're like what how did i not know about this you know i have people i have they said everything's fine how do i not know about these things and many times i think your managers might be overworked they might have the right skills to connect with their team to be able to give you the information around what's really going on there's a lot of stuff there i'm going to come in with three things firstly if we are naturally reactive as a human being because we're not conscious of bias and what we're doing that's where the shocks occur all of a sudden we've got this big thing if we are proactive in what we're doing there's no shocks leaders end up telling everybody what they've noticed is not right and together how can we put it right if that makes sense I think middle managers as well are in an awkward place because you said about they've got the top pushing down and people below them pushing up. So they're stuck in the middle. And being stuck in the middle of two different powers is not a safe place to be. So middle managers can often be unsafe and not comfortable when we need everyone to be safe and comfortable. So it's a difficult job for them. in a difficult place and then what happens is if nothing gets sorted out proactively you will lose your talent so this is about we have talent management programs well firstly have we got the right people on the right on the talent program for the right reasons that have the right skills or are we based on our bias likes and dislikes putting certain people on there that we think will fit because they are mini me's people like people like us so diversity in businesses is not very good um and also there's a saying did i tell you i like sayings There's a saying that if you don't build a culture where everyone feels they can say awkward things and things get done about it proactively and positively, you will, your talent will quit and leave. They will quit and leave. They will go into flight mode. Okay. Cause they don't want that anymore. Your talent quits and leaves, but others quit and stay. So what you end up having is you end up having a little cauldron of We've got people, but they're not always the right people in the right jobs here for the right reasons. And there's also a saying that it's not the people, because sometimes people have to be dismissed from work. If they're not behaving properly, don't change their behavior, don't perform, et cetera. There's a saying, as long as you can justify giving someone a sack, as we call it, or letting someone go, there's a saying, it's not the people you fire that make your life a misery. the people you don't fire that make your life a misery and affects lots of other people and behavior breeds behavior inefficient teams bad dynamics inefficient in your processes that hits the bottom line of profit because your customers aren't happy all that stuff that leaders are in charge of and strategically looking at starts with them as a human being with bias yeah so lawrence what about people that come to you and they're like Yeah, I'm not biased. I treat everybody the same. I'm aware. I don't have bias. I am an advocate that I'm going to be fair and follow our policies. Where do you even start that type of conversation with someone? Well, it depends on what I'm doing with them and depends on I have to challenge in a safe environment people that I do learning with. On the summit, I will challenge people to think about what they're thinking and recognize what they might be doing without knowing it. Because for me, learning only happens if you come out of your comfort zone. That's how you develop. Human beings like to be in their comfort zone. That's where your bias is affecting what you do. Anyone that says I'm not biased, and I'm hearing that less nowadays because bias, unconscious bias is much more out there. I hear that less. I spoke to a managing director today with the customer service manager and the sales director, and they said that They went into training thinking they were not going to be biased, but realized they were. This is about self-realization, self-reflection. But you need to know that there's nothing wrong with that bias. That's a key thing. People say, I feel really bad about thinking that way. No, no, no, no, no. Don't be bad about what you think and accept that. That's your bias. What we will feel bad about is if we behave unfairly or we're rude to someone. That's the behavior that comes from your bias, okay? And I always mention if someone says they treat everyone the same, there's a problem with that anyway. Right, yes. Because to treat everyone the same, there's a massive assumption about what you're doing is right for everyone. We're not finding out what individual needs are because we are all different. But then, you know, to work with people according to their individual needs all the time is difficult. What human beings do are difficult things, don't even try. So to treat everyone the same, there's a saying, if you treat everyone the same, you'll be putting someone at a disadvantage. And they will not necessarily tell you because it's awkward. And if they don't tell you, we assume everything's okay. So we're treating everyone the same and they're okay. No, no, no. You need to treat people according to their individual needs. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. First, you have to find out the facts about their needs instead of assuming what their needs are. Our bias makes us assume what needs are, where we need to find out what their real needs are. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And you're telling your people, like, I see you, right? I treat you this way because I see you. I treat you this way because I see you. As a matter of fact, I treat Tia this way, Jill, because we see her and vice versa in the team knowing that. I think that's one of the things that's like the hardest for leaders because and, you know, I've had leaders tell me this on. Man, I have to get to know all of my team members. You know, that's a hard thing to do. Just do half your team members and see how that works out. Right, exactly right. But it's like I have to do that on top of my work, on top of this, on top of all the other things that we have going on. But that's why we say leadership is hard. It's a hard role to do. It's a hard job to do. It's a huge responsibility. And a piece of that is because you need to know your team. You need to understand what is it that they need so you can remove barriers, so you can help make sure, I like the way you said, that they're in a safe, comfortable space, right? If they're not, they're kind of going through the fight, flight, freeze, you know? So it's one of those things that people don't realize how hard leadership is until they try to do it in a way that's effective. Do you know what? Lots of things there. When you say, you know, you need to get to know your team, you might never know your team. What we need to do is find out what they want us to know, what their needs are. When you said about all the other work you've got, I'm a great believer that anyone that's got responsibility for anyone, wherever they are, leaders, whoever, middle managers, they should not have a workload. They should not have any workload. why how would we do business if not everybody has a big task list and a pile of meetings and the task list that the middle manager has or the the leader has that is what you delegate but bias affects how we delegate and you know there's a saying i didn't know i had so many sayings when it when it comes to delegation or people doing things for you or the business there's a saying here if you want something doing properly you do it yourself So that's a tendency for people to hang on to work. What we need to do is recognise that the way we're doing it might actually not be the proper way. So we've got to do it the right way anyway. And what we're delegating to others is affected by a bias. We will often delegate to the usual ones and not delegate to the other ones linked to likes or dislikes. That means that some people are not developing. The more workload you give away, you're developing staff in many areas, which links into they will have the skills or more of them when they get promoted, then it's for the right reason. And so, you know, and then if you're not working on tasks, you are working on your people, managers, leaders, middle managers, they should be able to observe the territory, observe their people, notice anything that's just a little bit unusual and go and talk about that, you know, to make sure we're dealing with all the awkward stuff, you know, because you might find, well, you'll find what happens is when it comes to needs again, We will often, we will, if we don't know someone's needs, we'll fill the gaps for what's right for us instead of finding out the facts from them. So day one of a management course is all about you. Day two is all about them. Leaders need to get in the frame of mind of, okay, I'm doing the right thing for the right reasons. I might never understand all the thinking behind it because some of that can be deep rooted and imprinted upon me from early years. but I know I'm doing the right thing. I know if anyone thinks I'm not doing the right thing, they will tell me and we can talk about that and I can change what I do, yeah? And that's what leaders need to be doing. And then what you'll do is you will find out the facts from others instead of filling in the gaps for you as a leader. Find out the facts from others. Now we're really building a culture of, I'm not just interested in you, you know I'm interested in you. And I'm not just doing this in my, what is it? I'm not just doing this in my gimbo walk, Pat. I'm doing this every day. Every day, every second of every day I'm at work. Not just eight o'clock in the morning when it suits me. We've got shift workers, haven't we? So when am I being seen by all of the different shifts? Do we only ever see day shifts, never see the night shifts? What's going on? While the cat's away, the mice will play. You need to be seen. I remember a massive thing that really hit home for me with leadership was when I was in the police, we used to do regular night shifts, seven nights in one week we used to do as part of the shift pattern. And the chief superintendent, actually came to one of the night briefings first that we all looked to gog we've never seen them before because they're in behind their door that should be open when it's not the chief superintendent was on a night briefing okay they heard what we've got planned what was coming in what we're going to do for the night now we never saw them usually yeah they did something outside the usual now the thing is we knew that they were there as soon as we went off to do the jobs after the briefing they could have gone home they could have gone home But we're thinking they're still around. And just that thought of a leader being around will make people change their behavior, what they say and do. So it's being seen or being perceived to be seen by leaders. This is a big thing. And it resonated with me massively. There's just that one little thing they did made us really think about what we're doing. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Something that seems so small, right, can have a huge impact on behavior. Yes, and something that might seem small, although you've got a bad feeling about it, becomes a huge problem if we don't deal with it. It's the little things that make the biggest difference. It is. It absolutely is. We are excited because you are bringing your session, Uncovering the Bias That's Blocking Your Growth, to the Catalyst Leadership Summit on April eighth. And without giving too much away, which I think this conversation has been amazing. We literally can talk about this for like a full day. For sure. Yes. But as we think about your session next week, what do you want leaders to walk away, walk out of that room having experienced? I want it to be. the usual, which is thought-provoking, enlightening, exciting, fun with appropriate humor and it's a i want everyone to just get on that session i will ask them to engage and be honest with themselves the more honest you are with yourselves the more you will find out about yourself and only people they only know how honest they're being but i want them to be in a safe place where they are thinking about what they're thinking honestly no one needs to know this is about them so it's a deep self-reflection and uh people will get a deep realization They'll have a couple of light bulb moments or wow moments where you recognize people go, oh, right, hang on. So I can actually think that. And I'm now recognizing what I'm doing based on that. And I just want people to go away, even with the time we've got, just one or two key things about what they will change in what they say what they do how they behave at work will be a good start the thing is though whatever you get from learning it's what you do with it afterwards and we are creatures of habit that's our safe comfortable space so when you've got something you recognize personally that you need to change you've got to then do it and they So you've got to do something seventy times to break a habit. So this is why you've got to constantly be doing what you recognise personally is the right thing to do. That's what I want them to get. And also with sharing thoughts and stuff from other people on that hour session, really pay attention to what others are saying and doing because that will make you realise things as well. That's why you need to really pay attention to what all of your people are saying and doing and encourage them to tell you the awkward stuff and then do something with it. Gosh, yeah, Lawrence, you know, it reminds me of like the things that we say at work, we're like, well, that's how they are. Like you said, that's how we always do things. And this week, I think, gosh, I want to notice how often I just accept that. Yeah. I'm going to jump in very briefly, Jill. That's the way they are. That's avoidance language. The way they are. Okay. Well, let's think about why they are being that way. You need, as leaders, to be conscious of the bias. Then you actually know how you are. Yes. And how you are appearing to others. And you can make changes in how you appear to make things impact on culture positively and do even better things you ever dreamed of in any of your plans. Yes. Yes, I should clarify, like what I'm thinking about is like, it's really more about me noticing when I'm like, creating the stories or like, whatever those things are. So can I notice in myself when I'm providing those stories or accepting those stories? So I'm curious, like, what would you want our audience to notice this week? after this conversation today? I'd like them to notice whether or not they sign up for the summit or not and do it. Fantastic. We're with you on that. You can pay me later. But that's what I want you to do because the more people that are there, the more they experience this, the more word spreads, the more you get, the more podcasts, all the rest of it. What would I want them to do? I would like them to actually, instead of doing their usual, Take themselves out of their comfort zone. So if they usually have their lunch break over there with them, I want them to go over there with them. Don't have to say anything. Just go over there with them and pay attention to what people are saying and doing. I'm a great believer. Say less than you currently do. You've got two ears, one mouth, say less than you can do and hear more than you currently are. Because on the session, you will find that people will forget what they've said when they've said it seconds afterwards. They won't hear what other people have said when they've said it seconds earlier. So change your routine a bit. Even on the journey to work, change your routine. Instead of driving that same way, you drive to work a slightly different way. That takes you out of your comfort zone. And when you're out of your comfort zone, you're much more self-aware. Going a different – seventy percent of accidents in the UK in your car happen within a mile and a half radius of your house because you're on common territory, familiar territory. Do something different. Be seen somewhere different. Speak to people that you haven't – actually ever spoken to at work that have been there as long as you have about them just little changes like that getting out of your comfort zone yeah it raises your awareness about yourself and others yeah that's fantastic yeah i'm curious i do have one more question as you talk about that um How do when leaders do that, how do teams typically respond? How do others feel about it? I'm trying to sit over here now today. Yeah, at first they will see it as unusual because they haven't done it before. And we like things to be usual. So they will be thinking, what's going on here? We normally only see them when it's bad. So we've got to get over what their previous experiences were with you as a leader. They will initially see it as unusual, and that's – uh but the more you do it the more usual it becomes so it's just about the more you do it the more usually it becomes you don't have to say anything just be in different places and people are guaranteed leaders will start to see people actually approach them and start to say things but you've got to do all this in the right frame of mind you've got to recognize the benefit to you and your teams and your organization to do something outside your comfort zone you're going to mean what you do because people will see in your body language that you don't really mean it, so you've got to really mean it as a leader. You've got to be in the right job, the right leader, doing the right thing in the right firm mind. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I think this example shows how leaders should be proactive, right? Like you're the one that's actually going over and doing this unusual thing and continuing to do the unusual thing before it becomes usual. You're waiting on your team to do the unusual thing and show up at your door, even though, you know, as open door policy, if you're waiting for that to happen, it's never going to happen, right? Just a little thing. If you say you've got an open door policy, but your door's closed, open the door. So there's one less barrier. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Or I even think like people saying, oh, I'm so busy. I'm so busy. I'm so busy. Oh, I have an open door policy. Well, you just communicated to people that you're so busy that I should not interrupt you. Or if I do interrupt you, it's in the middle of your busyness. You're getting a mixed message. However busy you are as a leader, you have to make time for others. You have to make time for others. It's not about your time. It's about you have to make time for them. You have to. If you don't. Yes. That would be a fun challenge to have for some of our leaders to be like for a week. Let's just try. I always have time for you. Just saying that phrase, but meaning it and then giving them the time. But can you commit to it just for a week? Be like every time someone comes in, they're like, hey, do you have a minute? Yes. I always have time for you. Can you imagine how powerful that would be to practice? Jill, even more powerful. Before saying to them, I always have time for you, yeah? Yeah. When they're knocking on the door, I always have time. You've got to say that before people need to talk to you. Just walk through the office and just say, I just want to let you all know I always have time for you. I mean that. I want to hear what you feel I need to hear, the stuff that we know is going to go on that's awkward. We all want to deal with it. Then walk to the next office and do it. I mean it. Yes. And then when you have that moment where you're like, oh, my gosh, I need to get to a meeting, be like, nope, it's okay. I can follow up with those people. But this moment that someone's needing me right now, I can't come back and save. Do you know what, Jill? We mentioned about how busy people are. Be honest. Do you ever go to meetings you don't want to go to at work? Never. I don't believe you. Managers need to go to meetings where you can justify them to be there. We have too many meetings. People will go to meetings that they don't want to be in. Freeze. They will agree to things they don't agree to, so they can fly away as quickly as possible to go into another meeting they don't want to be in. If stuff can freeze and flight, we need to get into, you justify to me, Jill and Tia, why I need to be in that meeting. If you can justify to me, I will be there. if especially if the meeting can't go ahead without me being there we'll have it right yeah yeah many people say oh i'm invited to this meeting i don't even know why i'm there right i don't even know why they invited me i don't even know why Yes. That's our bias affecting that behavior, that routine and habit of meetings. That's behind that. Bias is behind everything. Yes. It's like those norms. I have to accept it. You keep saying, gosh, Jill, you're okay. But, you know, like, see, right, no matter how much you learn, there's always more to learn and practice. So, like, right, these little bits, I'm like, mm-hmm, that's something. Like, my notebook's always right here. I'm still jotting down. there's always more to learn oh yeah right if you want to yeah yeah right see the reason i say gosh is because this conversation makes me want to learn more go deeper spend more time Because I think it's also creating, you have to create space to actually even process this to know what to do. You can't just be like, oh, yeah, I'm going to take what Lawrence just said. I'm going to go out and do it. You can and you should. But there's also this like pause and think about it. So you're intentional about what you're doing as well. Yeah. Top tip is, though, is when you're conscious of your biases, don't overthink it because then you're going to paranoia. It's about accepting your bias, accepting what you think. It's a massive difference. And paranoia is not a good place for anyone to be. So I don't want anyone to overthink it. I want people to think about what they think before they speak. Yeah. Wow. I like how you say that, where you need to accept it. We even talk about that with emotions, right? Oh, I need to try not to be angry. Well, you are angry. Accept that you're angry. The issue is your behavior from your anger, right? The issue is your behavior from your bias. We all are biased. That acceptance helps you move to the next step. Name it, accept it, and make choice. Those are the things that we talk about in our program, too. The right choice for the right reasons and the right from the mind with the right. Yeah. Or at least you are actively making the choice. If you choose to still do the other behavior, at least you are aware that you are consciously doing that. Yes. Oh, well, you know, if today's conversation makes you want to go deeper, like it makes me want to think more about this. Lawrence is going to be at our Catalyst Leadership Summit on April eighth, and I'm really excited. It's a full session. As Tia mentioned earlier, uncovering the bias that's blocking your growth. This is the type of session that doesn't just inform you. You're going to learn, but it actually will change something. Like Lawrence said, he's going to challenge us to do something different. So I'd love to see you there. The link to register, we're going to put it in the show notes, but you can head over to our webpage, catalystfoodleaders.com. Click on the summit and join us. It's going to be a full day of conversations like this and deeper. Yes. And we cannot wait to see you next week, April eighth, Lawrence. Yes. We're looking forward to seeing it. And thank you for having me today. I've enjoyed it. I hope you too have as well. Well, thank you for being here, Lawrence. Pleasure. Yes. And to our audience, thank you for being here with us. We hope you have a fantastic week and we will see you next week at the summit. And remember, culture doesn't change until leaders do. So we'll see you there. Have a great rest of your day. Bye.
