Hello, everyone. Welcome to Real Talk with Tia and Jill. And we have a very special guest today. Welcome Grace Adolfo. Yay. Hello, everyone. welcome welcome and we are missing jill today jill is traveling she's probably out there if you're listening jill say hello in the comments um as well as whoever is listening or watching today please put hello in the comments let us know where you are watching from um but jill jill got delayed so she's not on with us today but that is okay because we are excited about today's topic Leading across generations and continents. And I know Grace, just with your experience and your background, which we're going to learn a little bit more about you today, like this topic is right in your wheelhouse. Hello. Hi, Michelle. Michelle saying hello from Iowa. Welcome. Welcome. We're glad that you're here today. And like I said, this topic around leading across generations and continents and really connecting it to how you show up as a leader. We were kind of laughing just about being here in America and names and different cultures. Like when you take a look at food manufacturing, there are a lot of different cultures working in our organizations. I was just talking to someone and we were talking about translating documentation And they were saying they have fourteen languages within their facility. So this is a very relevant topic for us today for our audience. So welcome. Yay. I see some of my folks in the chat. Oh, yay. Hello. Welcome. Welcome. So happy you're here. So Grace, let's kick off by introducing you to the audience. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself? Where are you from? How did you get to where you are today? That is always, for me, a fascinating question because I feel like I'm from many parts in the world. I would say I'm a cousin of the world and an adopted daughter of the Midwest and an original daughter of West Africa. And so I would like to say I'm Ghanaian American, but because of my footprint, I like to say I'm a cousin to everyone at one point or the other. But I'm also the founder and the CEO of Shifting Waters Leadership Institute. And, you know, I am a daughter of some amazing two amazing parents, Jonathan and and Celeste Christie Adolfoli. I like to reference them culturally. That's also an honor point of reference to always reference your parents as people who were instrumental in my development. And I spent many years doing work internationally and working across different cultures, different dynamics. And so here I am now. have launched something to really begin to break ground in the areas of the international space and leadership and how we function as people from the inside out. How did how did you get into this? Like, why was this a passion of yours? How did this passion develop? Well, you guys know, we all start off with, you know, when you're a kid, I want to become a doctor. That was my plan, guys. I was going to become a doctor. I was going to go to medical school and typical African kid. You were either going to become an engineer, a doctor or get a PhD somewhere. right um and honey i remember calling my parents in undergrad and telling my dad dad and mom i'm sorry i'm not going to medical school i want to pursue psychology my parents laughed out loud and i wasn't i don't know what i was expecting but they laughed and they said to me grace we we didn't expect you to go to medical school we didn't think you're gonna make it And I think their thing was, it wasn't because you didn't have the gift to become a medical person, but I think they said, you are too curious about humans and the way humans behave. And you are too in touch with human emotions and human suffering. And so for you, you need to be in a space that allows you to be a little bit more free and allows you to be able to investigate and talk about this stuff. And so the international work for me felt very much so like a calling. As somebody who was born in a different country, And really who grew up in St. Paul, in Minneapolis, I was always around culture. I was always around people. And so for me, it was natural for me to launch into that space because I understand that the the ecosystem of humanity didn't just arrive right in the States, right? It is beyond us, it is bigger than us. And so, yeah, I was very much so thankful that all of the richness that I grew up around really inspired me to go this route. But also, we came from a family of, we came from poverty, we came from so many things. that also really put a feel under my belt to try to change the narrative. When you've gone through something in life, it often becomes a catalyst for what you end up pursuing as well. But also I had great parents who were leaders in their own right. So that also was a catalyst for me to pursue this route. I love that. I love too the way that you talked about your interests around human behaviors and understanding what makes us move, right? What makes us make certain decisions and shift? How did you connect that to leadership? Because, you know, that's what we do in the food industry is we kind of connect leadership to these soft skills. And I would say we do this at a level, probably at like the senior level where you start getting some executive coaching. You start focusing more on those leadership skills as you lead an organization from a senior level. But we forget about all the other people that's leading. in our organization. And even as we shift culture, many times people aren't talking to us about behaviors, human behaviors. They're not connecting that to culture and how leaders show up. So what made you make this connection between this human behavior and leaders? I mean, I think it is a byproduct of being a human, right? I think it is important to understand that in order for you to be a leader, you have to understand how you act, why you think the way you do and how you move about the world. I think in general, I always like to strip back everything back to the basis, which is humanity. right you can't understand anything about leaders or being a doctor or being a nurse or whatever your profession is without understanding the behaviors in in the way we think and the way we move and so for me it was a natural progression because psychology uh and also i also got my degree in public health as also in social work and so i got a combination of degrees that talked about behavior and people and how we function and how we go about doing things and so for me it was a natural understanding to say, if I am to lead well, if I am to represent the very people that I want to represent, I have to understand not only how they are, how they think, how they behave, but also how I behave in those environments. Because I think leaders, it is so easy for us to want to study everybody else except ourselves. Yes. Okay. And the reality is if you know how behavior works, you end up not perpetuating the same toxic ideas, right, in the workspace, in your leadership. And so for me, it was just a natural progress that humanity, it's important to understand how humanity operates and how we operate both individually and collectively. This is why I love population research because it tells us a story about people generally across the board, but also how that affects us individually in the way we show up in the world as mothers, as fathers, as friends, as partners. And so it is just critical to really understand the way we move and think in the world. Yes, I love that. I love how you strip it down to humanity and understanding one another. You know, in ourselves, in ourselves, that's such a, such a great point because leaders don't, we don't focus on our, on ourselves. It's like, what does everyone else needs to do, need to do versus like, what do I need to do to show up, to show up better or to help, you know, a group survive, you know, remove barriers from people. Yeah, no, I think it's so easy to be able to, and I think this is also from a research perspective, it is so easy to want to study a person. But I think as leaders, for us to say, okay, how do we better our organization by studying our people? But I think the mistake is if you do not understand how you show up as a leader in your behavior, your understanding of humanity and how they are in your workplace can very much so be skewed. If you are able to understand the nuances of how you are, that can really provide some level of empathy, right, to the space that you enter. So I always tell leaders before you start going and taking all the classes and doing all the things, take some time to do the work on yourself. Take some time to understand your behaviors because that can really provide a platform for how you understand others as well in the world. And I would say that's critical as we think about like leading across generations, leading across different cultures, understanding yourself and how you show up. You don't, You don't have to say, oh, I'm going to be with, you know, fifteen different cultures or fourteen different languages. If you understand how you show up within a culture that you know very little about, that is how you show up in all of those situations. If you understand that you can show up as a better leader, regardless of what the culture is, because you know how you respond in those situations. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think I think it's I think it's everything. I think sometimes we don't give ourselves enough grace, no pun intended. You know, when we come into this space and say, I think the greatest gift you can give to another person, apart from extending love and empathy, is by saying, I do not know. Yes. Yes. You know, I don't know. Like, you know, I don't know something. I know something about your culture. I don't know something about your environment. And so and with the standpoint of I do not know, man, God, that opens so much doors for for for learning and for understanding. And so to your point, I mean, I think it's very much so being able to present yourself. And I mean, the some of the countries that I went to, I had, you know, yes, I did my research. Yes, I study. So make sure that I wasn't acting a fool, which, you know, I can easily act a fool. And so in those in those situations, I had to make sure that. you know i would ask people yeah teach me teach me what how you would go about talking about this and how you would say this right and not to put the burden on them but to also give them the extension to say let them share with you the way they operate in the way they think uh because that can provide a lot of i think uh equilibrium for how you go about interacting with them for sure yes yes very very good point so i'm so i'm curious throughout your studies and just from your perspective What feels different about leadership? So thinking about, you know, we do need to lead across generations. We do need to lead across culture. What feels different about leadership in the way that it's understood today compared to ten years ago or fifteen years ago? Well, I love this question. I love this question because I think it's important. I am the nuance queen, y'all. I will nuance every conversation as much as possible. I think there's been a lot of shift across the way we think about leadership and how leadership is seen generationally, culturally, but a big aspect of it is access. Access has given people the opportunity to be able to take a step back and to say the way we do leadership looks different because traditionally leadership used to be you were crowned with a position. You went into a traditional institution. They gave you the role. They gave you the title. They said, well, Tia, Grace, you are now a leader of your team, a leader of this department, right? You are officially given the status of a leader. But what we are now in a very technology space is that society is is getting the opportunity to crown leaders, right? So if I have a following, if I have a group of people who think I have an expertise in an area, they can crown me a leader without the traditional institutions recognizing me as one. Does that make sense? And so access has really expanded, I believe, our understanding around leadership And to some degree, that is a good thing, but it also has its negatives, right? Because somebody can say I'm an expert in something when they really are not an expert in that very field. And so access is significant. There's many things that I want to say here, but the second thing that I want to touch on is that vulnerability is not a feature and not a bug. Because back in the day, right, it was seen as weak for a leader to show and to say, I do not know, to show some level of emotion. But thank God through the works of Brene Brown and others, we have come to realize that vulnerability is an important key aspect of how leaders come about in the workplace. And I think what it's done, honestly, it's opened the doors for so many leaders to be seen as humans. Because often we remove leaders from the reality of their humanity and not recognizing that they have families, they have their own wounds, they have their own traumas. But I think what the door of vulnerability has created is that vulnerability is really like a strength if it is done well as well. The next thing I want to say here, I've been sleeping on this for so long. The next thing that I want to touch on here is that people are less concerned about being just inspired, but they also want you to create environment for thriving. it's become less heroic and more architectural so in the sense that people are saying yes thank you like we love the inspiration but we want you to create environments that we can thrive environments that are safe environments that allow us to have more autonomy Right. Environments that create systematic accountability. So it's not just, you know, talk the talk, but walk the walk, too. And so I think people are asking us to for leaders to say, hey, OK, great. Enough of that. Like, we love the inspiration. But now what? Right. So there's a lot more accountability from that space. And also, I think within that framework is the idea of psychological safety. I mean, Edmondson in the nineties, an academic has been talking about psychological safety for a long time, but now it's become more cultural that people want to feel like I can blow the whistle. I can I can call out hard things without being isolated, without being condemned, without being fired, right? When we see a glitch in the system, we want to be able to call it out. And so I think that is some things that I would say has shifted, you know, collectively across the landscape of leadership is that there's just a lot more level of trust that leaders have to earn instead of just being given, you know, trust. Yes, yes. And do you think that this shift, you kind of talked about access, but do you think it's generational or is it just because now younger generations, we have access to internet? You know, when I think about me being a millennial, you know, I grew up without internet and then I had internet right in most of my formative years. When I think about like young adult years, obviously I had internet, had social media, social media was just getting started really. Do you see when you think about like that access that it is generational? Definitely. So, I mean, I think access point matters, right? Because you can, for, I think, for example, and this can get very much so in different communities, depending on where you are, you know, where you grew up, who you grew up with, that could have provided more access to you, right? We know internet access is a big issue in our country, for example. I know there's been some structural changes to get internet to every environment, every community, from rural to urban spaces, more access to internet. And people would not think about this, but it's very much a public health issue. There's so that people don't have access to internet. So I do think access has allowed for us to be able to think differently about leadership. I think the ideas, I think, you know, post-millennial Gen Xers and others probably also had maybe questions about leadership, but I don't think the access was there for them to be able to vocalize it, maybe not publicly and to talk about it and to maybe create also the movement, right? Because what happens with access, it creates movements. And so you start talking about it more, It picks up steam. You know, I mean, it's a video here. It might go viral. And then you have more people who are being able to talk about an issue. So I definitely think it is generational in the sense that it's just opened the doors for conversations to to happen around these topics. Yes, I feel like those are very good points. And even as I think about people that's listening to this either live or on our podcast, they might be leading people. Nine times out of ten, they're leading people from a different generation, whether or not it's an older generation from them or a younger generation from them. And understanding that each of those people had different access because of development, technological development. they may respond differently to new processes being rolled out, new technology being rolled out, how they feel about it, how they're connected to it. You even talked about trust, building that trust. It all kind of plays a piece into it. And to your earlier point on as leaders, understanding how we show up in those situations are critical because we see people who have been promoted or they maybe have moved into this um unofficial leadership role but they cannot lead because they're struggling with um intergenerational um support right their team different generations and they understand access differently no absolutely and i think it's I think sometimes we talk about access like it's something that is given, but access is not given. I mean, there are parts of, particularly in the Western space, talking about the United States particularly, and also globally, there are people who don't have access to many things. And so that does influence information flow. It influences the ability to learn, the ability to to vocalize even what you feel or think about an issue. And so I think it's and for leaders, I think particularly in this, you know, leaders, post millennials. Gen Xers and above. And I think it is important to understand that. And sometimes I'll hear, you know, older Gen Xers and older and they'll say, well, you know, we have these issues. We just didn't have the internet to talk about them. Hundred and ten percent. Right. I think I think. nothing is too old under the sun. Yeah. I think everything in some form, shape or way has been talked about, has been, you know, marinated on in different ways. But the manifestation of that in our world now looks a little bit different, right? People probably didn't used to be feel confident to come out and to speak their minds about certain things. But you can low key go covert on the Internet, have a different name, whatever you want to say. And I know whatever now it's you. Yes. You know, the ghost writers. I love the ghost writers. Right. Like you have all these things. Right. That allows you that. Yes. That access point has really changed the way we think about leadership for sure. Yes, yes. OK, I want to go back to the point that you made that now anyone can sort of step into this leadership role. You don't have to be promoted into a role. People sort of gather around you in terms of followers, or we see it in our facilities where this person has a lot of power and influence, even though they don't necessarily hold a title. As you look across the globe, How do expectations of leadership vary? Absolutely. I mean, not a great question. I think expectation, I always like to frame again, the nuance queen. I like to frame this by understanding the idea of high power and low power environments. So there's a lot of research around this from psychologists that talk about high power environments are power, you know, are places where maybe seen as more authoritative in the way people lead. And so it is things like in the Southeast Asia, parts of Africa, Latin America, where would be called high power environment. What competence is the way in which they see your leaders. Like being competent is important in those places. Low power environment, if you were to execute the way you do in the high power, in the low power environment, like in Northern Europe, um and parts of like netherlands and so forth and so on um just europe in general and parts of even the west if we were to operate in a low context with like uh what do you call it a strong power dynamics and come in and tell people how to do you would be seen as an autocrat right you would be seen as somebody who was exuding a lot of power in those environment in low context environment. It is important to build to build relationships in a different manner. Right. And to be able to not necessarily feel like you have to be competent in all things. But those those understanding the culture from that perspective is quite critical. Now, I want to say that there has been research, Project Global, that talks about that across the globe, we all value certain things in leaders, the ability to inspire, the ability to have integrity and vision. So humanity across the board, we want people who are visionaries, we want people who inspire us, we want people who have competence across the board. But the way that shows up, so you can have the same expectation across the board, but the context of it matters and so in my work when i was working across thirty press countries and we we came in as the expertise right often we would come in we would be seen as expertise in the environment so my team and i we would come in to say okay we were trying to get people to change their minds around how they institutionalize systems within within their country office however One thing I recognize across the board was Tia, they all wanted the same thing, like in a sense of the expectations of our team, right? They all wanted systems that were high operating, that would not cause dysfunction in their countries, that would not cause more problems. But the way in which they talked about it, the way some were a bit more coy about it and much more like pessimistic passive with their requirements. And, you know, you go to West Africa, the Nigerians tell you straight as it is. They do not play around, right, from that perspective where some of this context, the expectations is still the same, but the delivery is different. The how. The how is very much so different. So I always tell people all the time, the power dynamics in those spaces often influences, like those high context areas, right? Even those Southeast Asia and parts of Africa have very much so high context environment where authority matters, that delivery is different. Right. I could not talk to a colleague in Thailand like I talked to a colleague in Nigeria. And so very much so, the expectations were the same. It's just the delivery. I had to be careful to, number one, understand how to communicate their expectations, but also how they communicate back to me. But they all wanted the same thing. Just the way they talked about it was different. Very much so across the globe. I love the way you answered this question because many times if people feel like that they're talking to their group in India or their group in Ghana or their group in the States, they feel like, oh, I need different expectations. But in reality, it's all about how you show up. I mean, we need like arrows pointing to the leader because it's really about how the leader shows up. How are they most effective in their communication? And it doesn't mean that you have different expectations or lower expectations in other areas. You don't have to do that. Actually, people are not asking for that. They're really just asking for you to deliver in a way that makes sense to them culturally. And you know what's interesting that people, I mean, God, I can't even say this enough, but even with the research space is integrity. I mean, just do what you say you're going to do. Right. that alone can diffuse a lot of cultural tension. If you say you're gonna, and then if you can't do it, communicate that. I always say assumption is what kills us. When you start anything from assumption, it will take you down a rabbit hole, right? And in the research space, we have to assume a lot. Like in academia, they have to assume some things, right, when they're doing modeling. But in talking to people, especially when you're working across the globe, you have access to your people. They are right in front of you. They are on that call. just have the conversation, right? And have about what they really want out of this. And then I think, you know, because some cultures are very passive about how they go about it because they are expecting you to investigate. They're expecting you to talk about it, right? Like access the question, right? Don't think you know what we want. And so, and I saw that across in parts of Southeast Asia, very much so whereby, you know, you could talk all day long, but if you do not create space for them to say something or ask the right questions, that would just allow them to be able to share their expectations. You could miss out on opportunities. So I always say, First of all, ask lots of questions. Yes. Give room for people to respond back to you. And also just show up. If you say you're going to show up, just show up. And that alone can build respect and trust across the board. Do you think that this is the same for generations? Because I feel like I could ask this question and put in generations instead of culture, and the answer would be similar. Very much so. I mean, I think one thing, I want to give each generation their kudos. I think each generation deserves has a way of communicating that looks slightly different, right? I think I always like to say, yes, there are generational differences, which I want to say that I often like to frame generational differences as generational tensions. And that generational conflict, because conflict assumes that you can't necessarily always resolve it. But you don't really understand what's happening. I think the reality is it's a tension. Right. Because I could be a let's say, for example, a twenty year old from, you know, west side from south side Chicago versus a twenty year old from a small town in Minnesota. maybe both millennials, but their environment and their context have definitely shifted the way they think. So there are nuances that within the generations, like not all generations are monolith, right? Like the boomers, they are not a monolith. your context, your upbringing, your parents, your environment shape, right? We know this. It shapes the way you think and how you are. Now, are there things across generations? Absolutely. You know, we know that the narrative that often goes around is that boomers tend to hoard power. That's one of the narratives, right? Millennials want meaning. We are the hippies, right? We want meanings out of everything. And Gen Zers can't tolerate hierarchy. Right. Yeah. Right. Like, and so that's the story that's being told, but even the research around, um, around generations and, and what we think about each other is still very much so developing, right? We don't really, and we know research doesn't always catch us up to narratives a bit later because of funding and so forth and so on. But I do want to say that, uh, the conversation should continue to remain nuanced. And yes, there's some truths about each generation. Absolutely. And so I hope that's helpful for folks as we are talking about it from that perspective. Yeah, I think so. I think so. One of the things that we say all the time is that we raise the next generation, right? So when you think about, you know, Gen Z and, you know, right now they are the kids of the workforce. And so, of course, people pick on them, right? All of us had our time. If you look back with research, you can find that every single generation used to be kids, and the previous generation talked about them very similarly, actually, to the way we talk about Gen Z today. But you see that connection that you're talking about because we raised those generations. Gen Z, they don't like authority. They don't like these command and control environments because they have seen, their parents have talked about how their jobs are. They've seen their parents come home and be consumed by work. They see these things happening. And so they have decided, like their parents have said, I don't want this for you. They've said, I don't want this for me either. And instead of going into it, saying, oh, I don't want it, but I need it, or I need to do it, they're saying, no, I'm not going to put up with it. And obviously, economics is also part of it, right? They can't afford homes. They can't afford certain things. So why even work in this environment when I'm not going to be able to afford the things that this environment is supposed to give me anyway? So when you think about being a leader in this space, all of these things are happening, right? And I like it when you talk about nuance because I'm also a very nuanced person. And this is what makes leadership so difficult is that you need to understand your people to that level, how they show up, how you show up for them, right? How you remove barriers for them so that you can be effective as a leader. Mm-hmm. No, absolutely. I mean, I love the way I think you talk about it, too, because I think one thing we don't talk about is that the economics play a role. Like, what's happening currently plays a role, right? In our society also plays a role very much so in how people are seeing each other and seeing leadership. Mm-hmm. Let's talk about trust a little bit. Because you have brought up trust, right? in your conversation around how it can be gained across different cultures, trust is really this foundation to leadership. And without trust, you really cannot be an effective leader. How do you see it being built across generations and across culture, or even maybe broken? yeah absolutely i mean so i am you know i like to say like you know i'm a big believer in a combination of lived experiences and speaking to the research, right? You know, I'm a research trained person as well. And so that is very much so how my brain works. And so if I want to make sure, I'm going to make sure I quote some of the right researchers here. But I think fundamentally, we know that trust is important, right? One thing that was a research, a recent research released by Pew Research Center, that talks about that trust generally across the board for leaders globally is trending downwards. And so we are seeing that trust between people and between leaders is shifting. And not just leaders, but trust for each other as society is also trending downwards. I mean, I wish I could show the graph. It's alarming. To see how trust is actually shifting over time and to see that in past years, the trust was heavy, but now our society has shifted. Trust has become, and then there is a much more superstition. also around each other so one thing i want to maybe distinguish is here is two types of trust the cognitive base trust so there is a book written by michelle gelfreld who talks about rule makers and rule breakers and she's a researcher and she talks about that there are two different types of trust there's the cognitive base trust which is the ability to you know demonstrate competence uh reliability your track record right so if a leader uh in most contexts like in the high in the high context environment they want you to have that cognitive based trust where you are reliable you have the skill set and there's the affect based trust which is based on relationships so t you know tia so it's like me and you building relationships can affect the way i end up trusting you right right those two aspects of trust right cognitive which is generationally Cognitive-based trust was something that we looked towards. You were crowned or bestowed upon leadership in your job place because you have that cognitive trust, because you have a track record and you have the experience. And then now you have the affect-based trust. Now, Globally, this is what's interesting in countries around like, you know, the Latin America, parts of Africa, Southern Europe and Middle East, parts of Middle East. The affect based trust is what's critical relationship building. Having relationship is building support. In America, in parts of the West, a huge part is cognitive. So we want you to be competent. Now, I like to say that it's not always, again, it's not always clean. Younger generations now are more cynical about trust, right? Because of, you know, we know this, you know, growing up in the twenty twenty, was it Twenty twenty eight eight and beyond. We saw a lot of exposure stuff right out of companies, CEOs being exposed, all this stuff that is happening. We talk about millennials. I've seen this right whereby that began to shape our understanding of can we trust our leaders? Right. And so we have seen that it is not just enough for many people to have that cognitive-based trust. We want your actions to follow what your crown says that you are. And so young people... being inconsistent, being unauthentic to your words really matter. And for the older generation, competence matters to them. Like, yes, you know, we can love you and we can respect you, but we want you to know that you know how to do your job. Right. Right. Yes. Right. And so the trust is built by doing. Yeah. Whereby for younger generation, trust is built by being. Doing and being. So I want to be with you. I want to connect with you. I want to feel that you are genuine. I build trust, right? And older generation, I want to see you do it and do it well, right? And then I build trust. And I think it is important not to say these things. They are all equally good things. They are important, but we have to, leaders have to create space for that. So, you know, there's another thing about the transparency paradox, which is the ability that across the generations, right? And I think maybe millennials and Gen Zers have more desire for companies to not just tell them, this is the decision, follow the rule, it is what it is. But, you know, back in the days, right, of older generations, when the CEO said, it is what it is, you follow. You follow it, right? Yeah. Just do what we tell you. You're getting paid, aren't you? So follow the direction whereby younger generations are like, we want to know the why. We want to know what you want from us. And so there is this loose understanding about why we should just give you trust byproduct of your title. Right. And so there is absolutely, I think, that aspect that we are seeing. And I think a heavy part, Tia, as well, that we know is that, and I think this is across the board, I think older generations haven't been given the opportunity to be as vulnerable as we are. Like, I always tell this to young people. I know y'all are on fire and you guys just want to turn everything loose sometimes. Right. Yeah. But you guys are at an advantage right now. You've been given the opportunity to just express. Society now has opened its doors for your expression, for your emotions. Our fathers and mothers were too worried about feeding your butt. You know, like... They were not worried about going to therapy. This is where we have to extend the grace. But I think across the board, people value consistency in the private versus the public. We want you to do what you say in private. We want you to be the same person in public right and so i think going back to this idea of being heroic versus architectural which is we want you to yes inspire us but who are you like when you show up publicly are you the same person when the doors are closed right and i think across the board though we say that maybe you younger generations want more of that. I think that is across the board. Nobody wants to feel like a blanket is being pulled over their head. You are screwing them over. Also, I think people just want you to follow up on the small things. I saw this online the other day. A young lady was saying, I told my boss I want a time off. three weeks in advance i put it in it got closer and people are not taking their vacations he was telling me to shut it down and just take only a week off And she's like, wait, I put my stuff in three weeks ago. Everybody else did this later. Why do I have to sacrifice for everybody else in the office? Right. For her, that did like a number of her because she's like, I haven't taken time off for the past two years. Like, I just wanted you to honor your word. I just wanted you to say, let me take that time. off and I think a big one Tia I know you I know you guys know this a catalyst for food like you you guys do this what so powerfully accountability yes mm-hmm be willing to step up when things go wrong yes right yes and that you have the ability to hold yourself accountable not that other people trying to hold you accountable right but you as my leader i shouldn't have to hold you accountable absolutely right you should be able to hold yourself accountable that is really the that's really the expectation that's it i always frame accountability in three levels I say there is your accountability, the self accountability. There is the inner circle accountability, and then there's the public accountability. Okay. You want to stick to the first two because there is grace for the first two. If you can hold yourself accountable early on and check it, then, then Glory to that. If you struggle to check yourself when something goes wrong, my hope is at the second level, your community of trusted colleagues and friends can then come behind you to hold you accountable without the public condemnation. Because once it gets public, you can control the narrative. I don't care how many PR teams you hire. It is harder, right? To raise the public because the public is very much so sometimes unforgiving when we fall short. even though we are all humans and there needs to be grace extended to all people, in my opinion, when they fall short, if they are willing to go on a journey of renewal and restoration. If they want to do that. But I always tell leaders, let's try to stick to the first two. Let's not have to go to level three. CNN is turning on the news, right? I have to see you on TV. Let's spare our family and friends the heartache, the social bullying that can happen, because often it's not the leader that always experience the bullying, it's their families. Right. It's their friends. And so that three levels of accountability, I believe it's everything. I love that. And it is super relevant to the people who are listening, because as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about like our teams, right? You as a leader who take accountability with your team, many times it stays right there. It stays right there in your team. You all talk about what happened. You all talk about what needs to happen next, and it stays there. If you don't take accountability with your team, complaints start happening. And those complaints go off of your team. Now your manager might have a conversation with you, but then now plant leadership is talking to you about it. And then next thing you know, your perception is being shifted. People are seeing you in a different light. Sometimes I've seen this happen, and maybe even the issue wasn't even that big, but that person wasn't able to take accountability for their actions. I remember being a new leader on a second shift operations team, and we had these robots, and I shut them down, boom, boom, boom, because food was flying, things was happening, and so I shut them down. And I remember I had a team meeting that night to kind of introduce myself and talk about like, literally I was new to this team and my team was mad. I remember one of those person on my team, he was mad that I did that, but he didn't, he didn't say anything, but I can see it all on his face. And so when we got into the team, I addressed it, right? I'm like, that probably was not the right way to shut it down. He's like, no, it's not like we, you know, you want to do it this way because it's so hard to get them back up. I'm like, noted, got it. I won't do that again. And then we started talking about, I actually leaned into Thank you for telling me this. And we're only going to make it through my time here if we have open communication. I appreciate when you tell me I'm not doing things right or there's a better way of doing it or telling me to stop. You have that authority to do that. And it completely shifted the way that we showed up together in that space. But that could have been blown up to a different space, you know, into a different arena. But I was like, okay. to take accountability. And I saw the way that that shifted on my team. And he came up to tell me multiple things throughout my time as his leader. And that saved me, right? That helped me be a better leader and helped our production team run so much smoother. But if I hadn't taken accountability, if I'd have said, well, you all were doing this and you all were doing that, right? And it wasn't on me, I don't think that we would have been as successful because that trust would have been broken ultimately. And I think it goes back to, Tia, I mean, I think that story is so powerful and relevant. I think it goes back to the aspect of creating environment for people to thrive. Yes. Because if you did not model that that could have closed the door for transparency, that could have closed the door for growth, that could have closed the door for meaningful relationships, that could have closed the door to so many things. But because Tia being fully transparent and who she is as a leader, when you showed up in that way, it opened the gates, right? For him to say, yo, like you probably don't wanna do that again. And it also built into your leadership a safe accountability individual who could say, hey, just looking out for you. And to build people within your organizations that are going to have your back, it is important to open the door for them to be able to give you the hard feedback. If you want people who are going to champion you, Give them space to tell you the truth. Right. Even if your egos get hurt. Yes. Because they'll be the same people to protect you. Right. Exactly. Oh, I love that. I love that. It's almost like you can't have those people that's in your corner if they cannot tell you the truth. They can't fully be in your corner. I also love one of the things that you said around trust by doing versus trust by being. We are so deep into the trust by being. And leaders, today's leaders, we're so far behind on understanding how to be comfortable being in that space of just being and supporting other people being. And I think it goes back to your earlier points just around vulnerability. Right. Like that is that's key in order for you to just be and to appreciate someone else being you have to have a level of vulnerability there. It's everything. I mean, I and I think we often think they are not dependent on each other. Right. If I am doing I should also be being right. Like if I am doing something well, there is a level of being comfortable with with where you are, your growth, your areas of weaknesses, your areas of strength. Right. So so and also being does not mean you should be. Just la la la. Right. Like, yeah, we should not negate laziness. Right. We should not negate not holding people accountable. Right. Being if anything, being should create opportunities for us to be honest. Right. Yeah. Somebody said in the chat, I look at vulnerability as a sign of resilience and not weakness. Hundred and ten percent. And I guess I just I think one hundred and ten percent, I think it is just one of those things where I always say resiliency is built not in a time. Resiliency is built over time. Yes. Yes. Right. It's built over time. And so to be to do that. You don't just get up and say, well, I'm going to be today. Or I'm going to be the best at the things that I'm called to do. No, like people who are Olympians, who are the best at their sport, started at a very young age. And they train. Like I always say, being a leader is a muscle. Yes. And you got to train that baby. Just train it every day. When no one is looking, you are being trained, whether you like it or not. You're training yourself in one way or another. Yeah. So I'm just going to leave it because I could go on. I could go on. Go on, Tia. Go on. I love it. I love it because you're right. A huge piece of catalyst is that practice piece. That's the training piece. Like you have to practice and you have to practice. One thing that I feel like is very different about our programs is that our practice, our homework, how you're training should be built into what you're doing every day. So we don't want you to go out and just create a scenario so that you can influence or I don't know, create these scenarios that really doesn't exist or it doesn't really play into your day to day. We talk about what meetings are coming up that you need to influence. Let's let's practice there. What worked? What did not work? What key relationships do you need to build? What projects are you working on that you can incorporate these leadership concepts into? Well, be intentional about it because you're doing something anyway. Right. You're showing up to the meeting. You're doing something anyway. It could either have a negative impact or it can be a positive impact. So we want you to intentionally think about these leadership skills so you can practice, practice, practice and build that muscle. Hmm. OK, Grace, before we move into our takeaway, I do have one more question to really think about. You know, I want you to kind of give some words to organizations or to people who might be listening and they're like, yes, I hear this. Like, I hear this. I know I need to show up differently as a leader. Or maybe you're like, you know what? I don't really want to or my organization is not really going to shift. What happens if you stay? in your spot if you stay to the definition of leadership that you need the title it's top down you don't have any agency over yourself you know that really it's coming to you it's happening to you what happens if you kind of cling to that old model of leadership Yeah, I mean, the way, thank you again, Tia. You are just hitting me with these questions. You know, I think it is, first of all, the way I frame, define leadership is your ability to influence someone incrementally or substantially over time or a point in time to either change their behavior to go towards doing something good or something bad. Which means all of us have a role to play. All of us are a leader because we are influencing by just showing up as well. So if I, you know, I have been in that position where I, where I definitely wanted to leave many times over the years. But I recognize that the change that I wanted to see, I could make with my team, with the team members. I could begin to speak hope in a place of disparity. Because if you begin to speak disparity, guess what? Disparity will be your continent. If you begin to speak hope, hope will be your continence. And so I always tell people, if you want to influence your environment, it begins with your mindset shifting. Yes, you may not be the VP or whatever, but I tell you, if you are the person on the ground, that is the way you act with people, the way you talk with people, the way you show up with compassion and hope, you have more power than your VP. Yes. Because influence, many leaders can have position and not have influence. Yes. And that, right? Because we are really the ultimate leader desire is to have influence. They want to feel like they can impact the way people are, the way they think, the way they go about living their lives. And if you can be that individual that is impacting the everyday movement in your workspace, right? that alone can shift the atmosphere. That alone can shift. And guess what? When you do something over time, incrementally, right? You will see the change. I promise you, you will always see the change. And so now if it's toxic, now if you are having panic attacks and it's not conducive to your wellbeing, please leave. Right, yeah. I'm glad you said that. It's not worth your peace to be in the hospital and to be looking tired and crazy. But it is worth your peace. If you feel like this space is really messing up my mental health, then please do the right thing and take care of yourself. But if there is an ounce of of doorway that you see in the midst of the darkness and you can see a light somewhere piercing through and you feel like you can impact that space, then do it. Do it. Yes. Yes. Discern. Discern. You know exactly what's happening. So discern the environment. You know what to do. Mm-hmm. I love that. I love that. Grace, this has just been an amazing conversation talking about leadership, talking about how do we lead across generations, across different cultures. And so... To wrap this conversation up, are there like two or three takeaways, key takeaways you want the audience to walk away with? I know we talked about a lot. Absolutely. I think one thing, I always say this, be willing to do the heart and the hard work. It's not just enough to have the heart for something, to want to lead well. It's important to show up in doing that. It's not just important to want to do the hard work and do all of the courses, but it's important that when you show up to Tia and Jill's classes and conferences that your heart shows up too. Because you can show up and not have the heart, right? And also one thing I want to say is that surround yourself with people who are going to challenge you. Surround yourself with your champions who are like, man, you are amazing, right? Surround yourself with your champions. Surround yourself with your critics. People who love you, but you know you can't just, you know, hit through them, right? Surround yourself with the right community of people who can challenge you and also champion you in the work that you do. And lastly, prioritize taking care of yourself. Because as a leader, if you are killing it out there, but when you go home, you are not doing well. Yeah. What's the point? What's the point? Yeah. What's the point? So I want you to prioritize doing, taking care of you so that at the end of the day, you have the strength to show up for everybody else. Yes. Yes. I love that. I love that. It's such an amazing takeaway from this conversation. You know, it really reminds us that leadership is not static, right? You have to continuously shift because our contexts change, our culture change, generations are different. And really just from your takeaways and from the conversation, right, really the leaders that thrive, like you brought up the environment that thrive, the leaders that do it are the ones who are willing to listen, adapt, and really expand their minds, right? Like when you talk about shifting mindsets, I am there. I am there with it. Yes. I mean, I am just honored, Tia and Jill, for you guys for even creating the space for leaders to do the difficult work and for creating a platform for me to be able to show up and to share my perspective. And so I just want to say for those who are listening, these two women are just off the hook. I mean, they are amazing. And I know for me, I have even gotten a lot just by reading their stuff. I just want to thank you guys for creating that space and for really being amazing, phenomenal leaders yourself and for continuing to push us in the right direction. And so I just thank you very much for creating the space for me to be able to come and share my heart and share my insights and expertise. Yes. Well, thank you for being with us today because this is so relevant. And I know our audience is like soaking this in because the work that you are doing at your organization and across the globe is needed. It's very needed. We need leaders to show up differently in our space if we're all going to thrive together. So thank you for being here today. Thank you to our audience for listening, for being a part, for sharing your perspectives as well. And if this conversation sparked reflection for you, we invite you to keep doing the work of examining how you lead, not just what you expect. You know, leadership is not a one person show and culture does not grow. It does not shift on its own. It takes that intention. It takes that practice. It takes those systems that we talked about today. And if you are interested in reimagining your leadership, you are thinking about what type of leader you want to be, join us for our leadership summit on April eighth. You can find all the details on our website at catalystfoodleaders.com. We are excited. We are so excited about it in our speakers and our panels. We're excited about it and we hope that you are going to be there with us. April eighth, do not miss it. You can find details or reach out to myself or Jill. We're happy to send you information as well. And with that, that is our real talk for today. We will see you next week, same time. Or if you're listening on our podcast, the episode typically drops the day after. And with that, Grace, thank you again for being here with me and having this very, very relevant conversation. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye, everyone.
