Hello, everyone. Welcome to Real Talk with Tia and Jill and our very special guest today, Candice. Welcome. Hey, how's it going? Great. We're excited to have you here today. Absolutely excited to be here. It's always a good way to start off our Monday, especially when we have like we're anticipating like just knowing you like this is going to be like a rich conversation and so worth leaning into. Mm hmm. In a topic that we know our audience is interested in, topics that we have talked to people about over the years, we actually tell people, don't wait, right? Don't wait. You can make this change, whatever it is that you're looking at. And most of the time we're talking about culture. Because we know that this is top of mind for people. was that just on my end that like the microphone sounded all weird no i i heard it too on my end okay i wasn't sure where that was so hopefully our our audience is able to navigate through that this is what happens when you're live yes it does and that where the show goes on so that's right that's right Yes. Well, and if you're out in our audience, we are happy to have you here. If you're joining us live through the stream, certainly we'd love to know where you're joining us from. Drop that in the chat. Say hello. Say hello. And let us know about your weather because we got some snow in Baltimore. You can't see me, obviously, if you're listening to the podcast, but I have my winter winter sweater on you do help you're ready for the snow that we're having today yes awesome well hey if you are new to uh real talk uh i'm jill and this is tia and our guest candace and today's episode is why you don't have to wait to lead change And today we are so happy that we get to talk with someone that you, many of you will probably be hearing from soon at our leadership summit. Candice McGlenn, who's the author of this treasure, Engage Us Now. So we're excited. Candice has spent her career working across NGOs, construction, food companies. And she's been studying how to change what actually happens inside organizations, which I know is top of mind for many of you. So if you're joining us for the leadership summit, then you know, her keynote is going to focus on grassroots movements and like bottom up culture change and all those things. But today we're going to talk about her and like how Candace, like how her thinking was shaped and what she's learned across these different sectors and just why this work that she's doing right now resonates so deeply with us. So if you've ever felt like culture change is needed, but you don't sit at the top of the org, like this conversation is going to give you a glimpse of what's possible. mm-hmm and we talked a little bit about this in the beginning but this is this is a topic that's trending across our industry in food but we see it across multiple industries and candace your background working in multiple industries you kind of pull this together um to talk about these commonalities right even across industries and how really grassroots movements is is so important to the change that we want to see. And just not again, not just in food, but across industries, leaders are questioning old models of change where we're really relying on titles or hierarchy or this top down approach where someone up top is going to tell us what to do and everyone is just going to do. I don't know if that even worked at any point. Not really. or not really right um but i would say now more than ever that's being that's being challenged and we see that being challenged across industries absolutely yeah and i i think when i think about why that's being challenged right now um for me it really boils down to where the world is. There's a term that was coined here in the U.S. by a military university that is called VUCA, right? The VUCA environment. And that stands for volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. And I think we hear those words and we're like, absolutely, yes, that's where we are. But one of the the the reasons why that's important as as you mentioned right that top-down style of change versus bottom-up is because it's a VUCA environment because it's volatile right it was coined because there was just there was not one way that a country could be compromised there are like multiple ways now and the same is true in the business world right there's no one answer for how things get done. There's no one cause and then effect. And because of that, you have to rely on the knowledge that exists in the organization. You have to rely on having people that are willing to see something, say something, do something, because we all are in a space, right? Where, you know, if I work on the front line or if I work in this area of the business, I see things that maybe this other person doesn't see. I think we're all familiar with that story of like the three men who are blindfolded then they all have um they go out and they're all touching like a different part of the elephant and one person is like hey this is the rope the other person is like oh this is a i don't know you name it right everything but an elephant and it's because they're only touching on their piece of the puzzle so we have leaders that sort of lead from a top-down perspective we are only getting part of the picture when we need the whole. So I think that's why this message resonates today for sure. Oh yeah, I forgot about that analogy, that story. You're absolutely right and we see it, right? We see it at work where people have different parts of the full elephant and we're fighting for this to be a rope. When in reality, you just have conversations with other people in the organization, we'll see, oh, this is not really a rope. Feels like it, right? But I can't really see what's really happening. And someone else is like, well, actually, this is connected to it. And the ear, right? So it must not be. It's a rope. Yeah, I think that's big. I think it's big. One thing, too, that you said, I love it that you said, you know, see something, say something, do something. And I feel like in the past of see something, say something, you're really just raising it up so someone else can do something with it. But when we talk about grassroots movements, right, and people really being responsible and accountable for change where they are, you have to do something with that information, not just tell other people. So I appreciate that third piece. We talk about that at Catalyst where it's like, we just don't want to see something, say something culture. We want to see something, say something, do something culture. Yes. Very important. Yeah. And I think that even plays into where you talked about the complexity of the world and where businesses are as well. If we always think that when those items are raised that there's one person like a manager or a leader who's supposed to do something like that's just not even possible. There are too many things that come up and too many factors. And that's also then what probably leads to things like trying to micromanage because you're trying to do all those things. And yet you have a whole host of people that are typically, you know, adults that are in their life doing their thing every day who are capable. So how do we harness that energy and that spirit and bring them in? Yeah. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, Tia. I was going to say that I like to tell people that they hired you to do something. They really hired you to bring these ideas and execute ideas, not just to point out issues that are happening. Precisely. So Candice, I feel like we should start kind of at the beginning because I imagine you didn't just wake up one day and be like, huh, I want to work in engagement and culture change, especially knowing that your background has some diverse experience, like with NGOs, construction and food companies. So what even first drew you to this type of work? Yeah, that's a great question. And I love, especially people who get into HR, there's never a, I, you know, there's some people of course, but, um, I never really meet people that like started there. And so I'm one of the people that I didn't start there. Um, I, I was drawn to sort of engagement and culture work after, um, working at a mission driven NGO and organization. And, um, with that organization, it was all about what they call people power, right. And bringing people. together around this shared purpose. And the work that I started off with them was really doing community canvassing. So I was going door to door trying to build you know, momentum around the mission, also working in grassroots organizing and really membership engagement. And so that gave me a, I guess, a unique perspective from those experiences, really just learning about like what the best movements had in common, right? And it really, what I noticed is one, it was, They had a mission and purpose that was clear. I also saw that really building membership and engagement was not about telling people what was important to them or what was important in general, but it started with deep listening and understanding the needs of that community and by understanding what would activate them. really taking those insights from those conversations to really connect those members in the community around sort of that larger goal and purpose that I started with that was clear and then enabling them and training them with the awareness to get the job done. So seeing that sort of formula for movement building, when I stepped into HR, I really noticed that there was a huge opportunity around engagement and culture. to bring in some of those, those practices, especially when I got into the for-profit world where, um, I would just hear leaders only talk about one source of meaning, which was the profit. Right. And I noticed that people, we were engaging them from their hands and their feet, but not their hearts and mind. And, um, just really thinking about how could we bring in some of these concepts that I just talked about to really drive engagement and get out of that kind of like zombie culture where people are just there to do a job, check out, go home. As you talk about even this process, it reminds me of how we talk about influence. You have to know what your mission is, what values are, and then help people connect it at the the foundation it's this i like the way you put it it's this deep listening and that takes time to do right like you can't just go in and say oh we want to change we're going to change people we want to have them do different behaviors and i'm going to talk to them this week and we'll be ready next week Yes. We talk about all the time on the need for people to slow down. And the slowing down part isn't just necessarily to slow down and do nothing, but it's really to slow down and engage in this deep listening so you can do the other parts of the movement. Yes, I love that. Yeah, I always say slow down the speed up because sometimes you just rush, rush, rush to results and then you got to go back anyway. I'm curious, I have a question just around when you shifted to a for profit organizations, right? And like you said, they don't, you know, a lot of times they only really focus on profit, whether, and we hear that in many different ways, cost savings, you know, all really kind of going to the profit that the organization is making. what do you feel like in organizations that focus on profit majority of the time what do you feel like is preventing preventing others from like moving forward and kind of stepping past that profit and saying yes we obviously profit is a is a thing for the organization But where do you feel like organizations go wrong and having people in the organization focus on the other parts of movements, the other parts that they should be focusing on? Yeah, I think just sticking to the script. It's an original script. It's what we all know. But I think the place people go wrong is just not activating people, not doing the listening, not understanding what it will take for people to move forward. I think specifically when it comes to transformation, I think, seventy percent of transformations fail. And it's because it feels like work is being done to people or changes happening to them versus change happening with them. And so really, it is all the stuff that happens before a change is initiated to. And that's the people part of things, because change is just the event. Transition is what humans go through. Right. And so making sure that we honor the foundation that exists in the organization, ensuring that we are engaging stakeholders and knowing what stakeholders need, what their pain points are, sort of what they're, what they gain out of it and really building sort of like that campaign. It's going beyond that initiative and building a campaign that is all about bringing people along. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, and that leads me to wonder, because you've talked about the campaign and slowing down to kind of go fast. When you look at the experiences you've had across these organizations you've worked with that have been on this journey, what patterns have you maybe seen that they share, hopefully, in ways that have helped move them towards this? But even patterns that maybe have derailed them from being able to go forward. Yeah. So I think in terms of patterns that have helped organizations move forward, I think one is they're aligned, right? And alignment happens from the start. So ensuring that individuals are connected and find sort of a source of meaning. I think Mackenzie has like these five sources of meaning that are really great. It goes beyond Just profit, that is one source of meaning for a group of people, right? You have other things like the impact on the customer, the impact on the team, what it means for them. Some people connect to the greater purpose and what the organization is doing. So it's not that everybody will have the source of meaning, but organizations that get embedding all of those into the work that's happening. So they can bring everyone along. Um, I think the other piece is, uh, just having, making sure that everyone's connected, um, and has clarity on sort of what, why they're there, um, their unique strengths that they bring to the team. And then the scope of decisions, like organizations that really have clarity on sort of decisions and how decisions are made, which decisions belong to employees, leaders, and just decision clarity being so important for that alignment piece of things. The second one is just they're engaged. People are engaged. That to me means share purpose and ownership at every level. It goes beyond people just knowing this is my piece of the puzzle, but I don't know how it connects to the bigger picture. So people understanding what they do and how they do it impacts. the organization and the enterprise. Really building that enterprise systems thinking across from the frontline to the C-suite to help people make decisions. When we talk about engagement, we're really talking about discretionary effort. People being able to go above and beyond sort of their job description but they can't do that they don't have all the the pieces there so just be ensuring that uh metrics and how people get rewarded how feedback is given all ties to the bigger picture and they understand the full value chain of the organization. And then I would say that enablement, right? Enablement is becoming a big buzzword, but it's super important right now. And for me, enablement looks like systemic barriers are removed. Systemic barriers from high performance are removed. And also just constantly monitored and identified. And so thinking about some of the accelerators of high performance in an organization, it's one psychological safety, especially with organizations and manufacturing, construction. We need people to be able to raise their hand early and often to share when something's not right. you know, and having good goal setting, there's clarity, purpose broadcasting, and then learning that actually transforms, which is why I love the work that you all do at Catalyst, because it's not just learning for the sake of learning, but it is truly built into transforming how people work and ways of working. that would be that. And of course I would say the opposite, the opposite of those. Yes. If you see me, if you're watching us live, you see me writing, like I'm jotting down notes too, as we're talking. So. Me too. Nuggets here are yes, yes and yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because you're right, like, even as you think about those things that you've seen, like, I'm just thinking about my experience or, you know, clients' experiences that they're trying to, you know, take on this transformation. And I love that quote that you said, like, change is, like, what is happening, but you said that people are actually, like, Transition, yeah, that's the part that we want to manage, yeah. Yeah, that's what we're managing. And I don't think people look at it that way. Even the way that we talk about change management and people are part of it, really the people piece is how are they transitioning through this change? What tools do we need to give them? to help them transition, what new skills, what new physical tools, even like you talk about the systemic barriers that you might need to remove as we go through these changes. I feel like people don't think about that enough. Like leaders do not think about that enough before they go through major change, like culture. Yeah. Well, I mean, even I think about like, a high level example is, you know, as organizations, they're like, we all work as a team, but yet we still all have individual performance reviews. I mean, those are, if you ask me, like, I mean, I know that's really maybe overarching, but even those are the things that, you know, to invite companies to think about, like, does that actually support, hey, we're all one team? What would be the shift so that we can, you know, help people have the most success that they can have, but also reward that in the team setting versus just as individuals. Those are some core things that I see in organizations that don't often shift. They might tweak it a little bit, but that requires that deep thinking of how does this really support us? And is that a barrier to where we want to go? Yeah. Systems environment is huge, right? Yes. I like, Candice, too, how you connect to the things that we're doing, like even taking performance reviews. That should connect to the bigger purpose, the bigger mission, right? Where your organization is going. And I've been in organizations that have shifted how they do performance reviews. And at the end of the day, it still comes down to what your you know your rating is going to be and ultimately we're trying to listen to our bonuses and all of these things but organizations that use performance reviews really as a tool to accomplish the type of culture they want to see that's when people start actually getting value out of their own reviews is because they see how it's connected to the type of leaders this organization want to be, the type of leaders that represent great leadership. You understand, ooh, these are the things I need to focus on over this next year. And you see the benefits of focusing on those leadership skills or certain projects to help with certain skills, whatever it happens to be. But organizations that use those skills those methods, those systems to show this is the type of organization we want to be. That outcome is much different than what we're doing performance reviews because like you said, we're following the script. We're following the script. They say that we should do it. We're probably not doing it the right way. We're probably not doing it in a way that motivates people to move forward. But we feel like we must do them. And we've always done them this way. And we're just going to continue down this path, even though it's creating people that don't know why we're doing it. See themselves as like, well, we get penalized as a team, but I don't get the benefits of being a solo worker and doing great things as an individual contributor. People get into, I mean, they feel it, right? They get into these moments because the organization hasn't really set them up for success. So even as you talk about these things and as we talk about transitions and the things that we could do and the things that you've seen organizations do and have success around change, have success around transitions, many people still feel like, Oh, I love that. We need that in our organization, but I need the permission or I need the title to make this change. Like it's not me because I'm just, I'm just a middle manager. I need my senior leader, the one that has the VP behind their name or in front of their name. You know, I need them to lead the change. Where do you think that belief comes from and why do we sit in it? That's a great question. Um, So I think there are a few reasons. One, again, just going back to that legacy system of leadership that we talked about opening this conversation where things are top down, the leader has all the answers and I'm just here to follow. So I think that's one aspect, but not, so an over sort of value on the leader the leaders at the top having all the answers and then completely undervaluing the perspective that comes from boots on the ground, being in the work and what that means. So I think there's something that senior leaders have to do, of course, to build that culture, but it's also a recognition in the individuals to know how valuable their insights are. on that. I think also just in talking to different employees and individuals and leaders, one of the things that I hear sometimes is that when people do raise their hand Even if it's not the right thing or it's not a fully baked idea, so to speak, that sometimes that gets shot down unintentionally by leaders. They're saying that, oh, we've tried that before. Or that will never work, right? Those are moments that either leave the door open or it shuts the door for people to continue to engage more with the organization and engage more in doing things beyond just their job or their title. And so those are two areas. And of course, we talked about enablement and the importance of that, but just making sure that people have that clarity. Their strengths are recognized, their unique value. People will always give when they know what difference they're making. Yeah. I love the visual of the door open or the door closed. And I think about how often we hear of organizations and senior leaders who are like, gosh, we did a new mission statement or we put up new values and, you know, we're doing town halls or we're doing Gemba walks, believing that makes the door open. Yeah. But what do you find people like, what are people really needing in those, you know, in these moments to engage? Is it those things? Are they really looking for something different? Oh yeah. I love this question. I think, um one okay it's great to get clarity on what the mission is it's great to get clarity on what the values are uh but i always uh challenge senior leaders and and leaders to think about how strong is that connection we know wi-fi right so it's always great energy at the top when we think about an initiative but as it channels down throughout the organization is it as strong as you think it is, right? And what people need is lived out values, lived out values, that lived out mission, it needs to be embedded in how decisions are made. So sometimes I often see where we have this high energy and effort over a statement that we created, and then a decision is made that completely is the opposite of what that value is, right? So when we think about what is culture, it really is shared practices that happen repeatedly every day, right? And if you just boil it down to that, what are those shared continuous practices that people are seeing? Are you are you connecting why a decision was made transparently with the values of the organization and how that worked. Are you recognizing people related to those values and those lived out shared goals? But really just thinking about where are the opportunities to really reflect how decisions and actions are made based on who we say we are? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, we like those times where this is who we want to be, and then the opportunity comes up, and then we don't. The actions do not reflect where we want to be. And we're like, ooh, right? And sometimes it comes up as, well, this time, this is a special. thing or, oh, this is a special business case or this is, you know, people see what you're doing, right? Like people see this regardless of if you think it's a special time or that, you know, like insert the reasons on why we feel like we need to step outside of who we are. People still consider that who you are. So it's not just this exception that people are going to just forget about and say, oh, yeah, we treat people with respect. But this one time, because this person was rude, we're not going to treat them with respect. Well, people still see the way you treat people. You can't just say, oh, well, this is an asterisk. I'm going to delete it from my mind. That's just not the way it works. For sure. And one of the things you said make me also think about, I think especially what I've seen in manufacturing and maybe even construction sometimes, there are things that leaders can take credit for. in terms of like listening and changing culture. But because I think there's sometimes this mindset on this is what we're supposed to do. We don't need to broadcast it, right? We don't need to connect it to feedback or what we've heard from employees. And so there sometimes also is this disconnect on what I shared and what actions happened. So if there's a large gap between people sharing feedback, whether it's new ideas or moving things forward or how the employee experience can change. And we're not constantly going back to here's how changes are made as a result of input. People are going to be less likely to continue to give feedback and input and they're in action towards more. Yes, yes. Yeah, and it makes me think about, you know, if I'm as a team member, you know, when I encounter these moments where I feel like there's a gap in what's being said or done versus what I believe what we stand for, like it takes a lot to try to stand in that spot and be like, hey, if you're listening, you don't see me raising my hand tentatively, but like to raise your hand up and say, gosh, this doesn't, like match what I thought it would look like. So what is it like, how is it for a team member too? Like what does this courage maybe, and maybe it's not even just always team members, but leaders, like how do they stand in this spot where there may be some gaps in how this looks in everyday life, but yet we still need to be in that space and acknowledge it. Don't we? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, courage is so important here, because you essentially are putting it out there, right? Just really trying to figure that piece out. And it is so much easier sometimes to just fade into the background. not share kind of what your perspective is and what you see especially if you've been in places maybe not your current organization but you've had experiences where that didn't serve you right or you you didn't feel safe doing that right um but when i go back to sort of grassroots movements, right, courage, courage really is valuing people power. So really understanding that there is power in numbers, there is power in perspective, there's power and really bringing in what you know, and you don't have to present your ideas in a way that you have all the answers. It really, at that point, is an offer of a suggestion or an offer of your perspective and how you see things. And so you can introduce those things with, hey, can I share what I'm seeing based on where we're saying we're going? How does that align or how does that change this direction, if anything? Right. So just opening it up and being asking open ended questions, not sort of assuming that your perspective is the only perspective, but you're offering that to provide a complete picture. And I think that takes the weight off of putting yourself out there because it's not that we are. trying to control the outcomes, but we are simply contributing to decision-making and contributing to the bigger picture and the organization. Right. And I think that sort of holding onto the outcome and wanting our ideas to be adopted and wanting things to happen makes us feel like we need to pull back or push in ways that people don't receive. Yeah, that's, that's a really good point where it's like this, this connection of like, it does not have to be your idea. You're starting the conversation. Yes. Throw it out to start the conversation, which is hard to do. Even in great cultures, it takes courage to stand up and say, hey, I hear where people are going. Let me add a little bit more perspective. Or like you said, let me share what I've been seeing. Does that change the direction that we're going in? And sometimes it's no, great information. It doesn't change the path that we're going. Sometimes it's, oh, yeah, we need to take a step back. But that piece of recognizing that you are a part of the conversation. So open up that conversation, you know, be a contributor to that conversation. It does take the weight off a little bit where it's like, I don't need to have all the answers. I'm going to throw this out there. I kind of like to say like, no, I'm just going to throw this out there and then we can do what we want with that information. But I want to make sure we all know this information kind of takes off that pressure of, man, I threw it out. Now I need to come up with, all the answers to this solution. I will say, be prepared. If that idea does get adopted, be prepared. Not just keep it out in the universe, right? It absolutely does help. And I think about an organizations where I've led different things and initiatives, I would always go to those people, the people that were vocal because I saw them as leaders and I knew they were going to give me truth and insights that I may be missing. And so to be that person in the organization is so valuable. We can't underestimate that. I always think that's the person who is just on the edge of being your ally. They are the one that when you bring them on board, like that's part of that energy to start that rolling. And when you talk about senior leaders being connected to the people, right, people who are either doing the work or on the front lines, tools are the people to really be connected to. And even as you were describing just a minute ago on just the disconnect it's almost like telephone like when a senior when the ceo says something or organization it depends on how large your organization is but that telephone line could be so long to a person that you expect to have the same energy from that original conversation that senior leaders had in the room and they're all pumped about you know so it's like And we've all played telephone as kids, right? And we know at the end of this very long list, long line, something has changed. But we don't take those learnings, those childhood learnings into the workforce and say, you know, probably by the time the third person has been told from a third person, it probably has shifted a little bit. So how do I make sure that I am connected to the people, connected to the person that's loudest, connected to the person that is very quiet, connected to the right and everyone in between? How do I actually find these things as senior leaders? Yeah. So, Candice, I'm curious because, you know, even as we've been talking a little bit today, we talk about kind of top leaders and kind of how they can set the tone, the message. And I think often, especially in our industry with food safety culture, there's a lot of talk about how do we get our frontline people involved? But I feel like this middle section, like these, I'm missing kind of these like mid-senior leaders and mid-level managers. It feels like they're not, I feel like there's some uncertainty in kind of how they help play into all of this. I think they're trying to, Yes, they see kind of what's happening from top leaders, but they're really in a role where they're supposed to help advocate and support frontline leaders. How can this group of mid-level managers, how can they help create space for more of this grassroots energy? Because a lot of times that voice doesn't necessarily get elevated for us. That is such a great question. And that sort of middle role is so important to the organization, but it can also be very challenging, I think, to sit in those seats. And I like to think of you know like the facilitative leadership style for for those leaders and and how they can show up and really own that space that they sit in in the middle of the organization um and that really is how do you promote uh employees to to make decisions and really enable them to to have better communication and more productivity together um it really is moving from how can I get them to do this to how can I fully, you know, enable them to to activate, think, decide, commit together in our teams. And I when I think about sort of the style of leadership, I think about the IKEA effect that they talk about. And there's lots of research there. But what happens in the IKEA effect is it says there that people value or maybe even overvalue what like the products that they either partially created or assembled themselves, right? And I think the same can be said about the workplace where when leaders sort of step out of the way of making every decision, because you can get so burnt out in that role, holding onto information tightly, giving more directives and asking questions, I think even in some cases, just not being vulnerable about what they don't know, and trying to put on a mask of pretending that they have all the answers, but really stepping into more creating ownership and accountability where that's embedded in the culture. I think we see really different outcomes for people in that role. I think it's a lot easier to try to command and control Um, and, uh, instead of taking time to really build systems and teams where, um, yeah, people are fully engaged and able to do some of those things. I think we, we all know the saying, um, you know, give a man a fish, And you feed them for a day. But if you give a man or if you teach a man the fish, you fed him for a lifetime. And I think leaders at that level, it can be really stressful if you take on that approach of just giving and doing all the time and not enabling. So I hope that answers your question. Yeah. And sorry, I'm taking more notes. And I love the visual of the IKEA. Yeah. Gosh, what a great analogy for leaders to think about. What are the parts that are really important for what we need to do? And then how do I make sure the right people have those so they can put them together? Right. Yes. And the right skills, the right tools, all the right pieces. Yes. And I love the way you answered this question because I feel like middle managers, you're right, we call it the middle manager squeeze. Like they're being really smushed between senior leadership and frontline leaders. And when grassroots movements are happening, typically middle managers are like, yes, we do need this, but I don't have the time. I don't have the time. I don't have the time to bring this up. I have all this other stuff. But the way that you answered it, where really their role is to enable, to ensure that their team have the right tools to remove barriers, now it no longer looks like you need to do anything other than help facilitate this parent's movement that is happening. You don't have to. Sometimes this is at all levels. We feel like, oh, something come up, we have to step in. We don't have to, right? Like other people are passionate about this, right? They're the ones that started the movement. Let them lead the movement while you help support them. You know, so I love the way you talked about middle managers and their role in it. I'm like, ooh, is this extra work? But it's like, no, like you are to enable them. Yes, take the cape off. and put on your coat and I know you all do a lot of training around that, but take the cape off. Incredibles, they talk about superheroes with capes like that never ends up well. So capes are not the long term strategy. Right, right. But I think that also opens the question of, OK, grassroots happening. People have ideas. Maybe they're getting the courage to throw it out. Middle managers are here to help enable that. What do you see the role of senior leaders? What are they really supposed to do to help create this space for grassroots energy? Yeah, well, this is such a great question because for me, that top team is so important. And I think one of the pitfalls of like a C-suite team or executives is they too go real deep into their functions, right? And there's sometimes a breakdown in how they work together. And at that senior, at that C-suite level, they need to focus on what they can do that nobody else can do in an organization. So they can make decisions around culture, around systems. So I would say get out of your function and really manage the work environment, the organization in ways that only that team can do based on level of authority, decision making, resources, all of those things, but really coming together with that enterprise level of thinking in the organization. And the thing is that they're the only ones that can do that. So everyone else can do these other things. Like we need you to do this role because you're the only ones that can do this role in the organization. Yes, exactly. So Candice, it feels like, obviously through all your experiences that you've probably picked things up along the way and that kind of helped shape how you think about this. But I'm curious, when you look back maybe on where you've been, is there a moment in particular, you know, when your own understanding of leadership fundamentally shifted to get you where you are today? Yes. That question for me goes back to middle school, which we all love middle school, right? But for me, I had an aunt, her name was Grace, and she led a food bank in Washington, D.C., And my parents, there was a family that they, I don't know how they got in touch with this family or how we were connected to this family, but they were dealing with poverty. And so one day we went over a weekend to go to my aunt's food bank and we went shopping, we got toys, we got food. And we took all of those items and delivered it to the family at their, their home. And I kind of was just going with the flow. I really wasn't present really in understanding what we were doing, but it wasn't until the moment where they had a young son, maybe he was in elementary school, let's just say that. And out of nowhere, he just gives me the biggest hug and gratitude. And I'm like, I just wasn't expecting it. But it brought me to where we were and what we done in that moment. And the reason that that resonates with me from a leadership perspective is because I think about my aunt, her life, her background. It's not like she came from a lot of resources and wealth, but she found a way to get people to donate and create this center where people could be helped and served. And then with my parents, same thing, right? What that taught me is that Really leadership is not about having a lot. It's not about having all these fancy titles. It's really about taking what you have and doing something with it to make the world better or to make whatever community you're in better. And that, that is leadership. I love that. Yeah. I love that. Before we jumped on, we were talking about the middle school years. Yes, exactly. And just how formative that moment was. And you had no idea. Like you said, you weren't even present. You were just kind of moving through. But you were able to pick up on when you are present, when you are intentional, when you use the gifts that you have, you can really make an impact. Like you said, regardless of title, regardless of money budget exactly it's all about how do i make this space better yes i love that what a great story i know and it's like this this leading with heart and this mindset of like how do i serve my fellow humans how do we lift up and i don't know who had this quote and that's not the right quote but it was something like i don't know if it was jfk or lincoln whoever but you know, like with great authority comes great responsibility. Oh yes. And I know those aren't the exact words, but it, that kind of reminds me of that. Like when we are in a, in a spot where we can really, I mean, really we're changing lives as leaders, like that is great responsibility. And do we take that grave responsibility to heart? Yeah. Yeah. And if you're listening, you're like, I don't know if I have that responsibility, but we're here to tell you that you do. You do. Because people are looking at you like you are a leader, whether or not you have the title or not. I mean, I feel like... All of us have been in this situation where people are like, management does this. And you're like, who's management? And they're looking at you. And I'm like, I'm not management. I don't even have a manager title. But they see you as a leader in the space. And that is the power. You can do something with that. to create these grassroots movements, to create change, to help people through transition. And sometimes we don't really, I love the people power, right? Like sometimes we don't realize how powerful our people are. And if we can just give them the tools, remove barriers, you know, really lead in a way that helps them become more engaged. I mean, like half the things that we complain about will go away. I mean, literally data tells us that a lot of the things that we complain about will go away because we'll be so much more productive as teens and individuals. Yes, yes, yes. All right. So, Candice, we've covered a lot of different areas, topics, approaches today. For someone who's listening in, what would be two or three things that you hope they walk away with after hearing this conversation? I think the biggest one would be just dissecting authority a little bit here, because I think that's where we get hung up. Going beyond the belief that authority is title, going beyond the belief that authority is position and recognizing that authority is insights. It's the information you have. It's your insights plus your gifts and your strengths. right because that's going to bring a whole new perspective like we could all be looking at the same data and information but we may not process it the same way so that's authority um i think authority is the relationships that you build within an organization you may have really strong connections and relationships with people that could get them moving because simply because they trust you and the authority that you've built in those relationships um I just think authority is understanding that about yourself and showing up with that courage every single day. I love that. Yeah. I love that. That's awesome. Yeah. That just reminds me, when we think about culture change, this has nothing to do with the job title. This is the practice of how we are intentionally lifting others up and supporting others. You know, one of the core things we always talk about here at Catalyst is like, how do we create belonging and safety and support? Because when we can do those things, like change is possible anywhere. Yeah, I love that. Mm hmm. So if you are listening today, and whether it's live or on our podcast, and this really sparked something in you, we invite you to go deeper with Candice at our Leadership Summit, where she will be our keynote speaker. And I know I'm excited to dive deeper into this. We have a QR code up where you can register for our summit, and Candice, I mean, I said this in the beginning, I love your message. And I think this is something that our industry really needs right now as we think about how do we want to shift culture? How do we want to show up differently in the future than we do today? And so if you are curious, you're listening, you're curious about grassroots leadership and engagement and how that can actually work inside your organization, this is a conversation you do not want to miss. And this is the exact type work we talked about it today, too, that we help people as a part of our leadership development. This is core to what we do. And we truly believe, we actually tell people, managers, that their team is a part of our cohorts, that they're going to come out being different people. And they might decide that your organization is not best for them if you're not ready to move your organization forward, because they're going to be ready by the end of our cohorts to make change because we explore that piece of each of us. When you talk about Candace, authority is in us. We explore that in our cohorts. Yeah, we're hoping to be ready to solve problems and be actively solving problems. So if that sounds like something where you're like, yes, I need support making that happen. Our public spring cohort starts the week of March sixteenth for both our leadership boot camp and our strategic leader program. So join us. And if you have questions, email us at hello at catalystfoodleaders.com like all together. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Which you can also find on our website. All that information is out there and we are so excited for you to experience Candice even more at our leadership summit coming up. Yes. So thank you. Thank you, Candice, for being here with us today. This little teaser for everyone. Yes. Such a great conversation. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, for all of you out there listening, like just remember, like leadership is not a one person show. hope from this conversation you see culture also won't grow on its own and it does take intention and it takes systems so that's today's real talk and remember culture doesn't change until leaders do all right well we will see you next week on real talk live same time and you will see candace again at our leadership summit on april eighth see you then bye everyone
