Hello, everyone. Welcome to Real Talk with Tia and Jill. Hello. Welcome to the week. Yes. We are excited about this week. We had a busy week last week. And this week, I'm sure, is also going to be busy as we get closer to the holidays. Right. We are kind of like in that whole like time period where everything seems to just kind of whiz by more than normal. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And before you know it, right, it's going to be twenty twenty six. It is. And that's why I think our topic for today is so great about performance reviews. Mm hmm. Because maybe you've already done them or maybe you're trying to get them in at the end of the year. And, you know, I remember like being like, oh, one more thing on my plate. Right. And even as I talk to other people like. There's not too many people that seem to enjoy the process of performance reviews, like this annual performance review that we do. Yeah, whether or not you're the one that's writing it or you're going through it, right? Like both parties don't enjoy the process. Yeah. And so I think there's so much room in there for us to be like, how do we actually leverage them? How do we use them as a really good leadership tool? We're going to have to do them. So how do we do them with, you know, more of a smile? Right. Exactly. Exactly. And that's what our topic is all about today. So if you are new to us, welcome. Welcome to Real Talk by Catalyst Food Leaders. This is where we have honest conversations to lead people forward in food. And so I am Tia. This is Jill. And today, like we said, our episode is all about stop dreading performance reviews and start leading through them. And so we are unpacking the real reason leaders and teams avoid these conversations and how to flip them from fear driven to culture driven. And as I was prepping for this, for this episode, there was this one, this one stat, and I'll put it in the description of this episode. Um, but it actually came from the society for human resource management or SRUM. Right. Um, they had an annual conference back in twenty, twenty-one and what they learned there, they must uphold people is that upon receiving their annual performance review, eighteen percent of women reported crying while twenty-five percent of men reported crying. Wow. Isn't that shocking? Right? On several levels. One, the number of people, and two, that people always say women cry more than men. Right. But I think the one thing that stood out to me is the number of people, yeah, women versus men. But even because we have that thought around women cry more than men, that means people in our organizations are crying about their performance reviews. And we have no idea because we don't even think they cry. Right. So like even turning that on to say, like, wow. Right. Because this is one in four men, one in five women. I mean, like essentially one in four people. Right. Isn't that wild? Hi, Michelle. Welcome. We're glad you're here. We've had a boss cry during your performance review. Oh, I'm curious. Like, were they giving you like negative feedback and that's why they cried? Like, why did they cry during your performance? Yeah, I'm super curious about that. Yeah, if you would like to share, we'll love to hear it. Because that's, you know, to me that was just shocking and just tells a lot about how our performance review process is just broken. Yeah, and you know, I found a funny little meme. I'm going to add it here. Yes. because I don't know about you but I remember like some of the first performance reviews I had that it was you know there's a scale and our scale was one to five and five was the they called it walks on water nobody gets a five or hardly anybody and so this meme really talked to me like the whole like what nobody gets to exceed expectations on their performance review And I think about that because here it just makes me laugh when they're like, you know, that'll just make someone work hard enough to not get fired. Right. Which is really sad to think we have these reviews for a purpose to help people have more success, to have the business, you know, to not going to stay aligned because if you're not aligned before your performance review, you've already lost. Right. Yeah. But, you know, to really help give feedback and to help create capacity. And it's supposed to be a dialogue. But people come out of this going, hmm, either crying or going, I'm going to work just hard enough to not get fired. Right. Exactly. Like, why? Why do all of this work? You know, I remember even having conversations around, oh, well, the people that might get fives are doing this project this year. So they probably will tip it. Right. Really, I don't need to find as much projects or I don't need to do as much because the company is probably looking at that project versus others. Because people know. It's almost like this known secret of how we're rated or ranked within the performance appraisal process. But in reality, people are responding to that. You know, I'm not going to do much work this year because I know what I'm working on is not high priority for the organization. So they're not going to score me as a five anyway. I just need to be successful, right? Successful. Good enough. Good enough, right? Wow. What inspiration for team members when we convey this message, either consciously or unconsciously, that you can just be good enough. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, there's right. There's so many parts to performance reviews and we're going to talk about it more today. But these scales and I think it all goes into the whole, you know, we have scorecards and we work towards outcomes, you know, like output. But what are really the outcomes we're driving with those two? Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's one thing. It's so funny because I was cleaning up my post-it notes on my desk. And one of the questions I had written down to kind of like ponder and have other people ponder is, do you understand the outcomes of your leadership? And we must have been talking about just leadership. And obviously, we talk about leadership a lot. But people don't really connect what we're doing to the outcomes. How do people feel? How are they going to show up differently or the same the next day? And I think when we think about performance reviews, we don't think about the outcomes of that. We kind of think about, well, we have to do them. You know, this is the process. We have to do them. But we don't think about what this process actually means for our culture, for our people. Yeah. You know, that's a good point because there's this whole thing of, like, why do people dread these so much? Like, these could be really powerful things. but we still dread them. Why? Michelle added in the comments that actually the feedback was positive, but it really threw her. It was emotional. And by the way, you didn't get exceeds expectations. Nobody walks on water. So the exceeds expectations is always hard, right? Right. Exactly. But I think, you know, along those lines, performance reviews feel like judgment, like you're going to the principal's office, you're getting graded, but it's only coming from this one way. So it's one way messaging about how you've been, this judging who you are, what you've done, how you show up. And most people don't know that you can negotiate it and talk about it and make sure it's accurate in this way because organizations don't set it up that way. No, I mean, obviously that should be part of the whole conversation we have here so that when you sit down for a performance review, it should just be the formality of like, we're now taking what we talked about and just putting it in the system. Right. Exactly. Exactly. But we know so many cultures don't work that way. Right. And that's part of that dread of, I don't know what this, I don't know what my manager is going to say. I know what I've been doing. I know what I wrote up. Right. But I don't know what my manager is going to say. And I don't even know what other information my manager got about me. Right. Goes right to what Michelle just said about, you know, there's a lot of leaders that don't communicate expectations and you should never be surprised. Right. Exactly. Exactly. But so many of us are, which is where that dread comes in. Yeah. And I think even as you talk about, like, I don't know what other things my manager has gotten about me, right? There's all these spaces of how do we share, but like as owners of this, like we are the person, how do we collect information so that we aren't surprised? Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's not just, you know, if we want to sit back and just wait for our leader to be like, here's your performance review, how do we step into the spot where we feel like, We already know what it's going to be. We have the we have more we have more agency going on around us than we like to maybe give ourselves credit for. Right. Exactly. Exactly. We do. We do. We have a lot more agency. We don't have to be just a passive participant. in this right and because we know when we are right we feel that dread we feel that judgment but we also feel that like this performance process is just rushed and vague and um that it is disconnected from the work that we do yeah like have you ever had that where you're like you're going through and you're like oh gosh is this is this really represent what i've done Yeah. Or is this just the paperwork and the formal process to get something in the system because HR is breathing down our neck? Right. Exactly. Exactly. I'm curious, too, like as you all are listening to the episode, we'll love to hear in the chat, like, do you feel like your performance you know reviews have they typically felt rushed to you or do you have like a dedicated time i know we set up dedicated meetings but does it feel like yes we have like a dedicated thirty minutes forty five minutes to actually walk through ask questions talk about um and for me it's been it's been both ways where i've had really good ones where i've sat in and we've had conversations and we talked about it and even my manager has made updates there i'm like okay i need to make that update there And I've had some that is just rushed and vague and, you know, like not really connected to the real work that we've done over the year. You know, it's interesting because whenever I've done performance reviews, like my goal has been, I'm sure it wasn't always great, but trying to have more meetings ahead of time so that things weren't surprises. But even when we had to do performance reviews, the processes that I usually used was like, you know, here are the things that we all know are going into them. Why don't you write how you think you did first? Yes. And then I'm going to write mine and let's see how close they connect. And then we'll go through them together and see like, where do they align or where don't they align? Yeah. Before we finalize. Yes. That's kind of how I always did them. But I love, I have had times where people are like, Hey, look, these were all due on Friday. So let's touch base on Monday. And I can just like, tell it to you quick. Right. They would email it to me. And I was like, really? This is my first film interview. I get it in an email. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But this is also keep in mind, right, like with the lack of preparation, the lack of importance, it also flows into your bonus. Right. It also I mean, how many times year after year when we talk about that exceeds, I've heard, well, last year you were here. So does it make sense that you jump here over the next year? So it's also setting the stage right and providing the baseline for your performance. but sometimes right it's just it's just not where it needs to be and like you said as leaders we really many many leaders just lack the skill to be able to you know to give them effectively or even if if you are the leader that's getting the performance review that you're stepping in that you're making sure you're driving those conversations Yeah. And I, I think the other part that's really important for managers to understand is this is the legal document that most organizations use when they are determining bonuses, but also when they're looking to like terminate you, put you on performance. Exactly. Exactly. So we may think, gosh, how important is it? We've been talking all throughout the year, but really this performance review is critical for your team members. Yeah. To capture their, like an accurate description. of performance and what's been going on. I mean, yes, people will dig into other notes if there's like, you know, things happening, but these really serve as this core, like the company said this, you signed off. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Right. Yeah. When every time you're kind of signing your signature or giving your initials or saying, yes, I acknowledge, right. You want to put some importance into it, even if it feels like your, your manager is not. yeah i don't know do you ever remember like do you ever remember having a performance review where after you were done you were like whoo i feel empowered like this was good like i got good feedback even if it wasn't all great but like i feel good about where i'm going you know honestly i would say most of my performance review i mean empowered is a strong word you know like having this like woo is really it's probably a little bit too strong of an emotion versus like okay yes i'm right where i am or you know early on in your career you don't know how much a bonus will be you don't know how much you don't really know the process so it's like oh okay interesting right but i mean I can't say that a performance review has ever been something that has been like, wow, that was something that will really keep pushing me forward or that's something that empowers me to keep moving on. You know, I really just, for me, it's one of those things that's like, I think about like the behind of the things too, right? Like where you're never really going to give it exceeds. I know you're kind of trying to balance your budget, you know, like all these other things that really have nothing to do with me is also playing into this. So, you know, I really just take it as like, just, normal feed a normal feedback i guess um as a part of the process because i know there's so many other factors i think sometimes i've thought before like huh this incident happened um i have been surprised by like an incident showed up and a manager tried to tie it to one of the company values. I can't remember what the incident was, but I did not like the way she tied it in because it made it feel like I was unethical or something or lacked integrity or something. I can't remember exactly what it was, but it was something around trust and integrity or something. And I was like, no. And I remember the manager saying, yeah, I wanted to include it, but didn't know where. And I was like, well, not there, right? if you want to include it, that's absolutely fine, but it shouldn't be included here. And that was one of the ones that she actually shifted. And like, I think actually ended up putting it as a note or something or something. I don't know. It was something like, I can remember exactly what it was. So it wasn't even that significant. I remember even being surprised it was listed. But again, I don't really care that it was, but don't make it seem like that it's under this group of trust or integrity or whatever it was, because like you said, it, follows you right in your career. It's always there in your record. And that's not something that is true, number one, but also number two, I don't want people looking through my performance and thinking, oh, does Tia have an integrity issue or a trust issue? So that is something that I do remember just paying attention to and being surprised by that. But shifting. Yeah. You know, I think that is a good reminder to people like, even though the process will say like the manager signed off, now you sign off and then we go forward. Just remember, you don't have to sign. Right. I think sometimes people feel really like compelled that they have to, especially when they're in an electronic system. And then they do the whole like, well, you're not going to get your bonus unless you sign or whatever those things are. Those are things that you can still email and put a note like, you know, I'm forwarding this because I do not, you know, I don't agree with this aspect of this performance review therefore i will not you know i'm not signing as is so think even about communicating that you know i think about that and it makes me a little sad you can see me i've got my forehead i'm holding it because i'm like these are all things that tell us about a company culture yeah it does i think that's the part you know as we talk about do we dread them are they valuable like what do we think of them are they surprising like those are all like characteristics of the culture you're in right exactly exactly i love that michelle i've never had a performance review that exceeded my expectations that's what my answer was kind of like right but i mean you're right i think it's a it's a mirror right it's a culture mirror to show like what is important here How do we value growth? How do we motivate others? How do we even give feedback? If this is the first time that you're hearing the feedback, we're not that great around feedback. Yeah. And just even the whole, how truthful are we with each other? Because if we're getting surprised in a performance review or even any feedback along the way, that means there might be some space in our trust models where there's not alignment. And really feedback is here. Feedback is meant to help people be successful. It is meant to ensure we're aligned and make sure we're on the same page and make sure people who are owners have what they need. That's what feedback and performance reviews are supposed to be about. Yes. I love how you connect it to trust, because it's one of those things, right, where, again, we don't think about the outcomes of the things that we do, where, you know, I don't know if people would have naturally said, wow, this conversation around my performance might lead to a a broken trust, right, or on the team. And I guess if we feel like there's a lot, we of course have heard those situations where it's like, ah, my performance was full of lies and I don't agree with it. And everyone around is like, well, you know, you are kind of not helpful. You know, like everyone kind of agrees, but they're really upset, like those situations. But like there could be something as subtle as, Like it's under the wrong value that you put something or you worded it incorrectly, right? Or maybe you put someone's feedback down that you've heard, haven't had a conversation about it and now it's in the performance review. And now that person doesn't trust that you'll bring up issues as they come, right? Like just even those little bits, can erode away away trust it's actually one of the reasons why a lot of companies don't give their engagement surveys right after performance reviews it's because a lot there's going to be a lot of people right that's not going to be feeling the love that's not going to be feeling trust right and all the things that's really the foundation of having a strong culture And instead of us like actually fixing the performance review process and making sure that it's clear and a representation of what our culture is, we just avoid the engagement survey right after a performance review. So we don't get that data, right. Or, or act on that data, right. We kind of wait, we're going to wait until it dies down in people's minds instead of, actually taking a look and using it, using that time as a true mirror of where do you stand when it comes to your culture? Well, I think we should consider that as a leader, if I dread performance reviews doing them, the people around me know this. Right. Right. Your team feels it. They get it. So today, what we want to talk about is like, how do you like own this whole process of performance review and really make it valuable, but also a better reflection of the culture that you want to have. Yes. Cause that's really where we need to go. So even if we dread them and we know all those, those parts, there are things that we can do. Right. Cause like you said, we have agency right in this process. We do. We do. And I think the first one starts with kind of like we talked about. The first thing is this awareness around them. We like, even if we want to associate this with kind of like our catalyst method, this is the spark phase of like where we start with building awareness and a review we've talked about should never be a surprise. Yeah. It should never be new information that's coming to you that you're like, Hmm, didn't see that coming. Right. Exactly. You know, and if you feel like something is going to be a surprise because something popped up right before your review, how do you make sure you connect with that person before you have the formal sit down? Right. Because sometimes things come up quickly and it's like, oh, it happened this year. We need to add it. Right. Good or bad. Right. Good or bad feedback. Right. Or I guess I should say positive or constructive feedback. that people get, right? We still have these same emotions, but you wanna make sure that you connect with your person so that you can build this awareness of where you are. The worst part about dreading is the unknown, right? We're really dreading the unknown of how the conversation is gonna go. Yeah, so if we use this as a place to build awareness, it's really more about a reflection point. So I shared that I would often have my people like, Write, write your performance review, like tell us what's working and what's not working because most people are their biggest critic. So if we start there and we start with hearing what our team member has to say, that gives us a place to lean in as well. Yeah. And it makes sense to do it in this way because they're the ones that's doing the work. They see things that you might not even see. And they will add clarity to even the feedback that you've gotten that can help round out your review. Because like we said, this is a permanent record. So being able to collect as much information to really show how this person show up in a certain way is of value. And having that person do it and reflect first on it right it gives you that information to kind of talk about it but it also bubbles up like what what that team member feels like is most important yeah and that really helps them so that they feel seen and understood because if we don't give that opportunity they kind of it's once again this is then turns into a one-way judgment versus a two-way dialogue and sharing for growth and so this is a great opportunity for leaders to really, really sit down and talk about where are we at? Yeah. And use your values and leadership principles during this time. And as a lens, when we really talk about connecting culture and how you want to show up, this is a great time to talk about these are the leadership principles that we see and we want to have more in our culture. This is how you are embodying this. It's almost telling your person when I think about how to empower someone, do their performance review. This is the piece around building awareness. I want to be able to empower them to say, go do more of this because this represents the type of culture we want to see. I think the other part in here is when we talk about building awareness, it's not just building awareness for our team member, but it's building awareness for us as leaders. I've certainly had times in the in doing performance reviews where i was like huh i don't think they made as much progress or you know they'll point out like they had these roadblocks or you know they had missed maybe whatever there was some challenge and the thing is is you can't necessarily write it up if you own that yeah like i've had moments where i was like that's not their fault right Like even though my initial perhaps response in a section on a performance review was maybe a little bit, I don't want to say negative, but you know, like, Hey, we all know we're not making progress. Like you should do more. Like it really gives leaders a moment to have this lens on them and be like, why is it that my team members weren't able to make progress? Why is it my team members are getting feedback that they're not as collaborative as we want them to be? Why is this happening? Because as a leader, I hate to say it, but really that's you. Right. Yes. But that's you. And that took me a lot to get to that point where I was like, huh, That wasn't how I was originally taught how to do performance reviews. But when I started using that lens of if I write something negative in here, I need to make sure that is something we have conversation about, that we are aware of, that we have done work on and still hasn't improved. Yes. Yes. Because if you haven't done work on it, then that's on me. Right. Because how many times have we had conversations around a team member struggling? Right. And we ask questions like, in what ways does this person feel supported? Or has this person been supported? And it's like, no, right? We haven't invested the time, the money, the resources needed to help this person. We've kind of just let them really honestly drown, out there by themselves, struggle out there by themselves because we haven't actually invested, because we're busy, because we have things going on, because whatever the excuses are, we're out of budget, whatever. But that's still not on that person if they don't have the right tools, if you haven't given them the right skills in order to do their job effectively. And in some years, you need more. Even some clients that we worked with, some years, you actually need a partner to help you Right. Get your team the right skills that they need to build them up to be able to coach them. And it could be as simple as like, hey, during this meeting, this is how you need to behave as a leader. Right. Sometimes you need that granular work. In some years you might not. But if you just kind of sit there and let this person just, oh, wow, they're not doing that well with their team. They're not doing that well with the team. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. And then at the end of the year, it's like, oh, well, yeah, they failed at it. But you have not been there to really support. Like you said, that's really on the leader. That's on you. But I think that also goes into the next part of like, how do we improve performance reviews? Right. Yeah. So if we look at that through our catalyst method lens, the next part is like, how do we shift to something more productive, which is really about creating a rhythm? You know, we have meetings after meetings, after meetings, after meetings, after meetings, where we're often talking about a scorecard or a project or, you know, something we're working on. But how often do we actually pause and create moments where we get to really step into feedback? Yeah. Like, it's just about people. How am I doing? I love that Michelle has that. she would have a monthly touch base that was different than a weekly meeting so that you could talk about challenges, success and professional growth. Yes. Like a dedicated time, right? Creating that rhythm. We talk about this monthly. Right. So there's no surprises at the end. Everyone feels like they're aligned on what the challenges are. What does even success look like? And I love it that you have on here, even professional growth. So like, this is what's going on in my world. This is what I need in order to grow. Right. In order to be better, to be better here. Yeah. Because why would we want to wait? Three, six months, maybe even a whole year, depending on the cadence that you have performance reviews or these conversations to let somebody know where you see maybe that they're struggling or being challenged or being frustrated. Yeah. Those are the things as a leader that you should be doing real time and creating actual space for it. So don't just tack it on like, oh, hey, after this meeting, can I have five minutes with you? Right, exactly. That's not the best way to approach feedback. Yeah, you want to be intentional. You want to be intentional about it and set up enough time that you can have the real conversations. Yeah. And that I think also really helps move it. So instead of like dreading this thing at the end of the year because you don't know what's going to be in there or you're unsure, like if you're having a cadence all along, you already know where there's been some challenges and where you wanna go. And everyone, I think about it from a culture standpoint, you've been communicating the values that the organization has, on this monthly cadence. What we like to talk about is these monthly micro conversations. You have that cadence where you are reinforcing these are our values. This is how you show up. This is what success looks like. Not this way. This is not how we show up here. That's correct. Those conversations are constantly happening. um which really embed it into your culture right it shows what leadership um skills you need to in order to thrive here within you know this organization yeah and i think it goes both ways often when we talk about like performance reviews and feedback and like for some reason there's that little bit of like what's not going well and we really like to advocate for like focus on strengths as well. Sometimes we shy away from that because we think we're being helpful, just giving feedback about where we think people need improvement. And there is some value in that. But I think there's also some need of alignment and awareness of what we're seeing because it's only our perception. but also like help people lean into their strengths. Yes. If that is like your zone of genius and that is your superpower, like we want people to be like, yes, I work in this place a lot because it's, it's easy. It's good. It's great outcomes, whatever those things are. Yes. Yes. And you know, I kind of think about performance reviews that the majority of it should be positive. Because the majority of it should be telling your people, this is what I want more of. This is what's working out well. This is how the team value. It's almost like how you really do want them to come from this being empowered. Empowered to keep doing the things that they've been doing that really drives action. And even when we think about the feedback that's needed, that's more criticism, it's like you want to say it in a way that empowers them to go and do. Right. Not stop and say, oh, my gosh, you know, like, oh, they don't really value that about myself. Or, wow, I thought I was doing such a good job here, but now I'm not. Or just kind of wallow in these spaces that maybe it's not a strength for you. Right. Maybe it is a growth opportunity for you. But we want people to go and do with this information, not sit and wallow or think about like even even the meme that we shared. We don't want people to think about like, OK, well, then how do I do just enough? Right. Just enough. to not get to not get fired. We want people to feel empowered. And I think a piece of that is the majority of it should be positive feedback. We should be reinforcing, right? This is what we want from you. This is what you're doing well, and this is what we want more of. One of my favorite tools to use and we would do this monthly is start, stop, continue. And not only did I do it for my team members, but they did it for me. Yes. It's super easy. And it's like, Ooh, what do I want to stop? What do I want to start? What do I need to continue? Easy. Sometimes they were big things. Sometimes they were just little things, but it created an easy structure and an easy rhythm to be able to do feedback on a regular basis. And to have that two way conversation, right? Like it's not just one way. stop start continue is both ways yes absolutely you know and i think about how often um you know one of the things that comes up is like does my leader have my back like if i make a call are they really gonna be there to support me or are they gonna be like no i didn't do that that was all jill yeah and i think it's important to consider the closer we are in our feedback in that alignment The easier that is to have happen. Yes. Yes. Right. Like it's easy. Like, you know, Tia and I know each other pretty well. Be like, I got Tia's back. Somebody over here I don't know real well. Be like, I'm not real sure. I should have their back. Right. Like, do I really know? Yes. Do I even have their back? You know, and it sounds funny, but there's plenty of leaders we talk to where they don't have regular touch points with their team members, or at least not ones that allow them to lean into this type of reflection and relationship building. Yes. So it really takes intention to do this so that once again, teams aren't teams that are like. I mean, think of a football team, right? Like if somebody is like, well, I'm not playing because I don't know them. It all falls apart. Right. You got to have each other's back. Yeah, you have to. And this this also makes me think about like this, you know, section around creating this rhythm of like if you if your manager is not doing this right, your leader is not doing this. You have agency. Set that rhythm for them. If you, oh man, my leader's not doing that. I don't really see that. Set up the meeting. Hey, this time, I really just want to talk about what Michelle had. Be transparent and honest about challenges, success, and personal growth. Start there. Start there in the conversation. You don't have to wait for someone else to do it. You don't have to wait for the rest of the organization to move to these micro conversations. You can start that now. No, and that really goes into when we talk about our catalyst method into our sustain. If we're going to do all this work, we need to get to a point where we sustain it and make it stick. So when we create this rhythm and we have it on our calendar, that means we have made feedback a part of our culture. It's part of what we do as a team. Yes. Yes, and you're constantly going through this reflection. We even talked about it earlier on, right? Like you're constantly going through this reflection, you're constantly going through these conversations and you're constantly communicating what values are most important in your organization. having those conversations multiple times, that's what's making it stick. That's a part of that sustain. And people feel like, right, if you as a leader, right, have the right skills to be able to have these conversations, then you really are empowering your team at least once a month to go and do and think differently. Yeah. And that's so powerful because we've all seen team members that kind of hold back in areas. yeah or when they're doing things and so these touch points are those moments to to really go what's happening because we've got goals and we want to meet them we have strategies we've created and we need people here and on board to make that happen so without this regular cadence of these you know you know maybe they're micro dose performance reviews or, you know, just feedback, but really they're conversations. That's really all they are, conversations. All those other parts fall apart. When I think about this too, there was one piece around having these conversations, man, my thought just like went away. What was that one about? No, it was something around having these A monthly touch basis. Oh, when you pivot. So I know I've had conversations like this or even within my own where you have this goal, right, at the beginning of the year. Tia's going to work on it. These are all the things you're going to get done. And then like three months in it, the organization's like, not a priority. We need you to work on something else. and then it's like if you don't revisit okay well i'm working on something else now it's a different priority how does my overall priorities look and how does that flow through my performance review if you're not doing that link you can get to the end of the year and they're like oh oh this was one of your projects yeah you didn't get it done And it's like, well, that's because you shifted my priorities to something else. Right. Or the organization did or we felt it was the right decision to. And so having these micro conversations around performance and success and where we are in your goals, this allows you to pivot and document those pivots, right? And really know that you're working on the right thing so that at the end of the year, you're not surprised on, nope, we changed out this goal to this goal because that's what became most important for us. Yeah, you know, I hear you talk about that and I'm like, it's no surprise that companies that invest in leadership development for their people they see a tangible amount, like let's see, Association for Talent Development says a twenty seven percent higher employee performance and retention. Wow. Like that's no joke when we talk about not only just keeping people, but keeping people engaged. Yes. And I would say even it's not even just engaged. It's really like people being probably more owners of what they're doing and really being active and empowered because engagement is just I'm in the boat and I'm paddling a little bit. Right. But we want people who are like really actively owning what they're doing and helping drive that. Yeah. I kind of see like the engages going back to the meme of I'm just going to do just enough. Yeah. They're engaged. Not very much. Right. They're not going to come up with new ideas. You know, they probably won't come up with major cost savings. You know, they're not going to go above and beyond for the teams. You know, they're going to do just enough to coast alone. Along. When we really need people, like you said, actively engaged. That actually reminds me of a conversation we had last week with someone who talked about the river and the flow. Oh, yes. And they said, you know, they use this analogy that, you know, there's employees that are like in the boat and they are just flowing with the river. Like, here's a meeting. I do the meeting. Here's a task that I'm assigned. I do the task. I just flow with where it takes me. And this leader's request was like, put a paddle in the water. I like it. Right. There's there's. shop along the way or there's a beach over here to see or there's some like put a paddle in and like pull over and see these things and make things happen yes yes choose your direction yeah but that's all about you know we don't want someone who's just doing enough so they're just doing enough so they can show up and then go home we want team members who are putting their paddle in the water and the only way that happens is through good leadership that starts with you that's the only way it happens. And it's honestly the only way to sustain it. It's the only way to sustain that type of culture where people are actively engaged because right. If someone puts a paddle in and they don't, they don't have the support or I don't have the skills to paddle or oops, I'm paddling the wrong way. And I'm just a mess, right? People stop, people stop doing that and they go back to going with the flow, right? Or they, know turn over and then they're out out of the game right and then they're out of your organization and you're not able to really um take advantage of the people that you have right that's a perfect place where when you think about how what what do i do if i'm like not just going to do an annual performance review but maybe i do a monthly cadence those are the monthly touches to be like hey are we flowing or are we paddling right exactly fantastic exactly you don't have to wait till the end of the year to be like You didn't put a paddle in the water. No, this is as leaders, we get to be in this space to say, yes, let's paddle. Yes, yes. And if you are someone that has influence over the performance review, you know, there's a lot of documentation out there that shows like. Performance reviews in the way that we do them are not successful, right? They don't give us the outcomes that we we want. But some of the ones that show promise or had better performance of the performance reviews are ones that really focus on how, not just the what. And I like to bring this up any time I'm talking about performance reviews because most of us live in an organization where we're not going to be able to influence the organization to get rid of performance reviews and do them completely differently. We're just not there yet. You might be in a position that you can if you can have those conversations one hundred percent. But if you cannot really thinking about how do I focus on not just the what and the results and the outcomes, which is important, right, should be there. But did I hit my goal but created a fire along the way and now the whole culture is crumbling, but hey, we met our goals. I've seen that where someone has gotten this high performance piece, but everyone's like, wow, that person is rude, not a great leader. Doesn't represent the type of culture we need, but they keep getting rewarded and it feels like they're getting rewarded for their behavior. When organizations who have kind of figured this piece out says, OK, it's great that you made your goals, but if people don't feel supported along the way, if they don't feel a part of the team, if you haven't built strong relationships versus tearing them down, then you're actually not going to get rewarded even for your outcomes. We would rather you miss your goal and spend more time with people than forget about people and culture and make your goals. and that that's a message right there and that's a message that is reinforced every time you give a performance review every time you you get there because i i know in those organizations even if i reach my goal but everyone's like wow tia is just not pleasant to work with and i don't want to on the projects my review is not going to be great Regardless on if I sold everything, shipped everything, passed everything, it doesn't really matter if it's not right. We see it even with food safety and quality. Sure, shipped all the cases, but from a food safety standpoint, I really didn't care about it. I didn't care about food safety. I just did my whole operations thing. That's not going to be a great performance review because one of our values is around food safety. Well, you bring up a whole good point about our performance reviews in general, or at least the way most organizations have them structured. Are they value added? Right. That's another entire episode because we can certainly get into the psychology of human behavior and, you know, this difference of performance reviews that are completely like individualized. Mm-hmm. And promote individualism versus other approaches that actually like more likely align with cultures that we're trying to build. Right. But yes, at the core, there are some, some gaps in some places that the way we execute these today cause some conflict. Yeah. Yeah. But they're part of our system. Yeah, and we talked about the things on how can you use what you have to really drive empowerment, ownership, right, in the culture you want to see. There are things, you have agency, right? Like there are things that you can be doing even within the systems that we have to drive, right, the cultures that we want to see. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and if you're wondering like, gosh, like what does this mean for me? Like what should I do? go out to our resource hub, like go out to our website and under resources, there's resource hub. There are multiple tools there to help you kind of navigate through this. It might be like, what type of leader, how am I showing up? And are there places that I have opportunity for growth? There's a download for that. If you're like, gosh, I recognize that we don't invest enough as an organization for our development, there is a download for make the case for development. Because if you don't, then you're going to be here again next year. Yeah, yeah. It's such a fantastic tool. It's one that I wish I had when I was trying to make the case for development. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we also have to remember that leadership isn't a one person show. It takes more of us and being aligned. It doesn't mean you have to do everything the same. But culture doesn't grow on its own. And we need leaders that are going to be intentional and work within a system to help support where we want to go. And we hope today's real talk have given you some nuggets to kind of take with you to think about, you know, if you're in performance review time or maybe you're your end of year doesn't really end to May or June of next year. Just give me some thoughts on maybe I should start those micro conversations now. Right. How do I develop this rhythm? How do I build this awareness? build and make a rhythm and then really make it stick for my organization and for my team right and for yourself right because you're also going through it and then hopefully these conversations won't be as much of a dread right as they have been in the past yeah so you know if that sparked something for you make sure you subscribe so that you don't miss any of our shows that are Monday. They're live always at eleven Eastern and certainly share this with someone who also leads with heart and grit and can use a little support. Yes. Yes. Thank you for the comments, Michelle. Thank you so much for the insights and your your perspective around this. We all are really in this together. And as we shift the food industry, right, it's important for us to share. So we appreciate you sharing. Yes, so remember, when leaders grow, cultures change. That's the show for this week. All right, we will see you next week, live. Bye, everyone. Bye.
